Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby alayire » Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:01 am

Shoju wrote:My original hope was that perhaps even just a "tribe" of satyrs joined the Horde. Maybe some tribe already in game, or even better, a tribe we haven't met. They break free of Xavius and realize the folley of their ways. They join the Horde because the Nelves don't trust them, and want to KoS.

For the Alliance, I was thinking about Ogres, though... they are REALLY big.

It is a shame that they want the silhouettes to be so noticeable. I would love to be able to choose Satyr / Ogre and then choose which faction I roll with.

Say.... you have a starting area similar to the Worgen area. Alliance and Horde both rushing in from opposite sides, looking for something other than the race that is there. It would work better with the Satyr, because it could be some thing they need to fend off the legion, and you kill the 'lead' satyr in the final quest, and gain part / half / all of the artifact from killing him, and you can then give it, or have used the help of, the faction that you wish to join. It would be a REALLY cool starting zone, and would introduce incredible player choice.


Personally, I would love this if implemented.
I really doubt Alliance will ever get Ogres since they have been part of the old Horde and have close ties to the new Horde as well. that and they are a shamanistic race to begin with. but that won't happen anyway .. Blizzard has already stated ogres won't become a playable class.

On the same note, Satyrs joining the Alliance makes much more sense since their only tie to the Horde is quite slim at best (the legion corruption approach). breaking free of a curse and being forgiven by the NE seems more manageable.

also Centaurs don't need to ride a land mount, I mean look at worgens. However flying mounts lol. not going to happen.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:01 am

I think we're about done with new races. There aren't really any obvious candidates, and they won't want to bloat things with too many options.

(Wood nymphs, Centaur, Tol'vir are out because they can't use mounts. Ogres are too large. Naga have no legs to display leg and boot armor. Elementals tend to be have no legs. Faceless Ones would need to be redesigned to be more humanoid, ditto Drakonid and Giants. Elemental Ascendants would maybe be too human in silhouette with full armor on.

Satyr and Furbolg are possibly the only existing races that could fit as a playable one with minimal design work. Then again they could always pull a Draenei and have a new design based only loosely on existing things.)

Edit: Then again the Maloriak Dragonkin design might work. A bunch of mini-Maloriaks running around would be interesting to see. Damn, now I've thought of that I want to see it.

Edit2: Haha. Apparently there's suggestions out there that the Maloriak/Chromatic Prototype model was actually based on an unused player race concept.
Last edited by KysenMurrin on Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Dantriges » Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:27 am

Seems what´s left are high elves if they don´t care about blood elves on the other side, furbolgs, ogres and satyrs. Earthen could be an idea. vrykul perhaps but probably too big for most normal doors. Perhaps as something completely new they could introduce some elemental touched guys. Guys who got infused by free floating energies and as a small dark secret disillusioned Twilight Cultists who look for a new home after master is gone. Blizzard really likes to introduce races who are cursed/different or have other fundamental issues in some way. So they are following the tradition of the Forsaken, Blood Elves and Worgen.

They introduce something new every expansion. They probably want to introdue something new every xpac, so another race or class. A new race is easier, but a new class would have a bigger impact and perhaps interest more people who are bored with the old ones. the problem is that we already have 10 classes and 30 specs and they are already a bit difficult to balance. And probably a new class is too much.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Shoju » Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:44 am

alayire wrote:I really doubt Alliance will ever get Ogres since they have been part of the old Horde and have close ties to the new Horde as well. that and they are a shamanistic race to begin with. but that won't happen anyway .. Blizzard has already stated ogres won't become a playable class.

On the same note, Satyrs joining the Alliance makes much more sense since their only tie to the Horde is quite slim at best (the legion corruption approach). breaking free of a curse and being forgiven by the NE seems more manageable.

also Centaurs don't need to ride a land mount, I mean look at worgens. However flying mounts lol. not going to happen.


Wait... You think the Night Elves forgiving the Satyr is more plausible than them joining the horde because the orcs understand the demonic corruption of the legion? Seriously? I admit I don't read nearly as much as others on the boards, but from the knowledge I do have, the Night Elves forgiving the Satyr is as likely to happen as a Garrosh and Varian becoming Ozzy and Hariet style Life Mates storyline.

Ogres would take more work to make "fit" as a player race, but you could use a "the Horde abandoned us here" type thing, and the Gnomes decide that they think they would be Epic Land mounts and become friends with them. Plus, The Ogres could get Mekkatorque out of Gnomer... [sarcasm]

I don't know if you have noticed, but.... There are a couple of shaman totin' races in the alliance now.

But yes, if Blizz said they wont, then they wont... for now. They are HUGE, and that does bring about all kinds of problems.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:49 am

Following my previous post, I now want Satyr in the Horde and Chromatic Prototype dragons in the Alliance. Dear Blizzard: Make it so.


(More seriously, I wonder if maybe the balance between Kalimdor and EK needs to be considered. Is it time for another Kalimdor Alliance race and EK Horde? Satyr would most likely come from Kalimdor (but so would Furbolg!).)
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Shoju » Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:25 am

There are Satyr in parts of EK aren't there? I could have sworn I saw some during TBC somewhere.....

I like the Chromatic Prototype dragonkin things too! It would give me an alliance race I could stick with too.... so that would be cool.


Make it so blizz. Make it so.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Fetzie » Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:11 am

I can't remember off hand ever seeing satyr in EK. Maybe in the blasted lands, but definitely nowhere else.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:51 am

There's the one Satyr in Duskwood that people used to kite to stormwind, but I think that's it.

Reading more on the dragons, seems they're called "Dragonmen" in the game files, and they use the same skeleton and animations as Worgen, which means they'd have to be changed to be playable.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Shoju » Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:53 am

That's because all the satyr on EK are Rogues.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby alayire » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:43 am

Shoju wrote:
alayire wrote:I really doubt Alliance will ever get Ogres since they have been part of the old Horde and have close ties to the new Horde as well. that and they are a shamanistic race to begin with. but that won't happen anyway .. Blizzard has already stated ogres won't become a playable class.

On the same note, Satyrs joining the Alliance makes much more sense since their only tie to the Horde is quite slim at best (the legion corruption approach). breaking free of a curse and being forgiven by the NE seems more manageable.

also Centaurs don't need to ride a land mount, I mean look at worgens. However flying mounts lol. not going to happen.


Wait... You think the Night Elves forgiving the Satyr is more plausible than them joining the horde because the orcs understand the demonic corruption of the legion? Seriously? I admit I don't read nearly as much as others on the boards, but from the knowledge I do have, the Night Elves forgiving the Satyr is as likely to happen as a Garrosh and Varian becoming Ozzy and Hariet style Life Mates storyline.

Ogres would take more work to make "fit" as a player race, but you could use a "the Horde abandoned us here" type thing, and the Gnomes decide that they think they would be Epic Land mounts and become friends with them. Plus, The Ogres could get Mekkatorque out of Gnomer... [sarcasm]

I don't know if you have noticed, but.... There are a couple of shaman totin' races in the alliance now.

But yes, if Blizz said they wont, then they wont... for now. They are HUGE, and that does bring about all kinds of problems.

a) the satyrs had no connection to the horde whatsoever. no background(with them being Night Elves), no interaction even when the orcs were under the influence of the Burning Legion. while on the other hand they do have history with the Night Elves.
I'm saying that this "escape from the Legion grasp" is too far fetched to make an orc even blink. Not saying the Night Elves forgiving the Satyrs is likely, I'm saying that if they forgive them somehow .. like say being actively involved in their freedom/liberation, it's more likely they will join the Alliance then joining the Horde that they have no connection/contact with?
Of course .. on the other hand, if by chance an orc shaman or a tauren druid helps them liberate/free themselves that would be another story altogether. But as it stands now from my point of view it's more likely they would join the Alliance then the Horde.

b)the Ogres. you are stretching things with the Gnomes and such. and furthermore, while there are shamans amidst the Alliance, none of the Alliance races are shamanistic witch the ogre, orc and troll races most certainly are. that is a huge difference. let us not forget how the shamans were introduced to the Alliance in the first place.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:05 am

The Dwarves are indeed a shamanistic race. You're thinknig of it in terms of the Draenei, who learned Shamanism from observing the pre-Legion Orcs on Draenor, but in current lore the Wildhammer Clan have a long independant heritage of Shamanism.

Regarding the Satyr, I think there are equally plausible stories could be made to link them to both sides. The Horde gaining control over more than half of Ashenvale and still being on the offensive puts the Satyr presence there at risk, and they now have Orc forces surrounding them and the Night Elves pushed further away. It's the perfect opportunity for them to reach out to the Horde - enemy of my enemy - and guarantee their own survival.

Just as an example.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Aerron » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:06 pm

At which point did the Satyr's split from the NEs? Before or after the High Elves? I've always been under the impression that it was around the same time as the Naga split/changed/whatever.

If the Satyrs split from the NE before the High Elf schism, then they'd have as much of a connection to the elves of Silvermoon as they would the NE.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Shoju » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:15 pm

alayire wrote:a) the satyrs had no connection to the horde whatsoever. no background(with them being Night Elves), no interaction even when the orcs were under the influence of the Burning Legion. while on the other hand they do have history with the Night Elves.
I'm saying that this "escape from the Legion grasp" is too far fetched to make an orc even blink. Not saying the Night Elves forgiving the Satyrs is likely, I'm saying that if they forgive them somehow .. like say being actively involved in their freedom/liberation, it's more likely they will join the Alliance then joining the Horde that they have no connection/contact with?
Of course .. on the other hand, if by chance an orc shaman or a tauren druid helps them liberate/free themselves that would be another story altogether. But as it stands now from my point of view it's more likely they would join the Alliance then the Horde.

b)the Ogres. you are stretching things with the Gnomes and such. and furthermore, while there are shamans amidst the Alliance, none of the Alliance races are shamanistic witch the ogre, orc and troll races most certainly are. that is a huge difference. let us not forget how the shamans were introduced to the Alliance in the first place.


A.) You're right. No connection, no shared experiences :roll: I forgot there are no orcs that ever were 'slaves' and manipulated at the hands of the burning legion.... That is completely far fetched...... :roll: while on the other hand, the race that they BETRAYED who has been HUNTING and EXTERMINATING them somehow finding a way to forgive them isn't far fetched at all.........

B.) Yes, the Gnomes thing was an OBVIOUS Stretch, meant for sarcasm.... I thought the part where I said the Gnomes thought they would be epic ground mounts gave it away....

and yes. The Dwarves (wildhammer in particular) are incredibly Shamanistic.



EDIT:
@Aerron.

I believe (and I'm a little fuzzy here) that the High Elves were still High Elves and not naga when it happened, as I thought that Xavius had ties to Azshara for some reason. Trusted advisor or something. I will have to check on that.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:20 pm

Aerron wrote:At which point did the Satyr's split from the NEs? Before or after the High Elves? I've always been under the impression that it was around the same time as the Naga split/changed/whatever.

If the Satyrs split from the NE before the High Elf schism, then they'd have as much of a connection to the elves of Silvermoon as they would the NE.


Satyrs were created by Sargeras from loyal NE mages during the War of the Ancients. The difference is that Satyrs were explicitly and instantaneously modified by magic whereas High Elves changed (evolved?) over thousands of years. It's not so much a "split" as it is an affliction (kind of like the Worgen curse, but on a much worse scale).
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:21 pm

Shoju wrote:I believe (and I'm a little fuzzy here) that the High Elves were still High Elves and not naga when it happened, as I thought that Xavius had ties to Azshara for some reason. Trusted advisor or something. I will have to check on that.

Xavius was indeed Queen Azshara's trusted advisor, yes.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Shoju » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:22 pm

HEY LOOK! SHOJU WAS RIGHT ABOUT SOMETHING
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby bldavis » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:40 pm

Shoju wrote:HEY LOOK! SHOJU WAS RIGHT ABOUT SOMETHING

it was a fluke....
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:30 am

bldavis wrote:
Shoju wrote:HEY LOOK! SHOJU WAS RIGHT ABOUT SOMETHING

it was a fluke....

Keep spouting random stuff and you're bound to be right eventually... :D
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby alayire » Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:18 am

Shoju wrote:A.) You're right. No connection, no shared experiences :roll: I forgot there are no orcs that ever were 'slaves' and manipulated at the hands of the burning legion.... That is completely far fetched...... :roll: while on the other hand, the race that they BETRAYED who has been HUNTING and EXTERMINATING them somehow finding a way to forgive them isn't far fetched at all.........

B.) Yes, the Gnomes thing was an OBVIOUS Stretch, meant for sarcasm.... I thought the part where I said the Gnomes thought they would be epic ground mounts gave it away....

and yes. The Dwarves (wildhammer in particular) are incredibly Shamanistic.
it seems that you and I have a different understanding of what connection means. the orcs had no interaction with the satyrs and I spelled it out specifically. one rarely allies with a race with whom it had no prior interaction.
You are assuming there will be interaction and as such there will be a connection.
On the other hand I merely pointed that interaction between the elves and satyrs existed and still exists. you cry out that it's hostile interaction, I'm pointing out that it merely exists.
for there to be any alliance with whomever the Satyrs, or at least part of them need to renounce their ways. If said event would implicate any of the 2 parties (Alliance, specifically NE or Horde) it can go both ways. I'm assuming it's more likely the NE then the Orcs because they have interest in the matter. The Horde atm have none. that is exactly my train of thought.

and yes the WildHammer clan lore seems to show they are shamanistic. the other 2 clans are most certainly not. It's a gray area granted.
but I'd like to point something out to you: the Taurens have tribes that are druidic like Mistrunner and Runetotem. they also have (I'd say that they have stretched this thin) tribes that have recently embraced the Light. yet the Taurens are a shamanistic race.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Aerron » Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:04 am

alayire wrote:I'm assuming it's more likely the NE then the Orcs because they have interest in the matter. The Horde atm have none. that is exactly my train of thought.


Again, you're ignoring the fact that the Horde has as many Elves with as much of a connection to the Satyrs as the Alliance.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Dantriges » Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:15 am

IIRC most satyrs are still in Kalimdor with the exception of a few rogues. The War of the Ancients was 10.000 years ago and the Blood Elves never were immortal.
I have never seen a quest involving the relations between Blood Elves, who were former Highborne and the Nightelves.

So it´s seems to be more a connection like the one between Turkey and France being former provinces of the Roman Empire influencing their current diplomatic issues. Not at all.

Perhaps less, if the Bloodelves have no formal schoolsystem with history in class.

The Nightelves and the Satyrs are still living in the same area. Well their relations aren´t very friendly. Perhaps the orcs who recently moved in, have some dealings with the satyr and could negotiate an alliance against the Night Elves. Orc troops are probably stretched a bit with the recent human attack in the Barrens and the satyrs don´t like being persecuted by the Night Elves.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Shoju » Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:57 am

alayire wrote:[it seems that you and I have a different understanding of what connection means. the orcs had no interaction with the satyrs and I spelled it out specifically. one rarely allies with a race with whom it had no prior interaction.
You are assuming there will be interaction and as such there will be a connection.
On the other hand I merely pointed that interaction between the elves and satyrs existed and still exists. you cry out that it's hostile interaction, I'm pointing out that it merely exists.
for there to be any alliance with whomever the Satyrs, or at least part of them need to renounce their ways. If said event would implicate any of the 2 parties (Alliance, specifically NE or Horde) it can go both ways. I'm assuming it's more likely the NE then the Orcs because they have interest in the matter. The Horde atm have none. that is exactly my train of thought.

and yes the WildHammer clan lore seems to show they are shamanistic. the other 2 clans are most certainly not. It's a gray area granted.
but I'd like to point something out to you: the Taurens have tribes that are druidic like Mistrunner and Runetotem. they also have (I'd say that they have stretched this thin) tribes that have recently embraced the Light. yet the Taurens are a shamanistic race.


The more I read of what you post in response to what I said, the more I realize that you at best skimmed it over, and are just trying to debate things because you feel the need to be right, without actually having read what I posted. You should really go back and read the whole thing.


Here, I will help you out, since you can't do it yourself.



Shoju wrote:My original hope was that perhaps even just a "tribe" of satyrs joined the Horde. Maybe some tribe already in game, or even better, a tribe we haven't met. They break free of Xavius and realize the folley of their ways. They join the Horde because the Nelves don't trust them, and want to KoS.

For the Alliance, I was thinking about Ogres, though... they are REALLY big.

It is a shame that they want the silhouettes to be so noticeable. I would love to be able to choose Satyr / Ogre and then choose which faction I roll with.

Say.... you have a starting area similar to the Worgen area. Alliance and Horde both rushing in from opposite sides, looking for something other than the race that is there. It would work better with the Satyr, because it could be some thing they need to fend off the legion, and you kill the 'lead' satyr in the final quest, and gain part / half / all of the artifact from killing him, and you can then give it, or have used the help of, the faction that you wish to join. It would be a REALLY cool starting zone, and would introduce incredible player choice.


Personally, I would love this if implemented.



This kind of lays out the idea that

the legion is coming (hey the orcs know about the legion)
the satyr in the area have realized they don't want to be part of it
the satyr in the area have something that will help fend off the legion
it sets up the idea of the horde and alliance moving on the area by referencing how the worgen starting area takes place, only in this scenario, the horde isn't gunning you down as you run away.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Mcduffie » Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:55 pm

Have we considered a "neutral" faction? Like, what if you were "race x." And the starting zone ended with you choosing which side you wished to join, Alliance or Horde. Their home city would be a sanctuary, like Dalaran.

Ehhh? Ehhh??
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:11 am

alayire wrote:...one rarely allies with a race with whom it had no prior interaction...

Out of legitimate curiousity (I'll readily admit I don't keep track of WoW lore) but what connection did the Draenei have with the Alliance? Did the Forsaken have previous connections with the Horde, or were they shunned by the Alliance and the Horde said "the enemy of my enemy is my friend..."? What connection did the Blood Elves have before they joined the Horde? What about the Goblins, other than conveniently landing in Azshara (by Org's back door?)
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Levantine » Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:14 am

The Forsaken were shunned by the Alliance, the Blood Elves were betrayed by humans and had Sylvanas and the Forsaken linking them to the Horde and the Goblins were met with open hostility by the Alliance in their starter zone quests.
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