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Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Passionario » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:03 am

Sabindeus wrote:See that sort of thinking is where my rage at the retcons in WoW comes in.


The post-Cata changes to the Forsaken are borderline retcons as well, IMO.

Back in the day, we didn't have this "slavery vs. death choice" dilemma. You started out as a freshly awakened ex-Scourge undead. The initial quests made it fairly clear that it was a good thing to be Forsaken, considering the alternative; in fact, the second quest your character received asked you to put down a dozen of mindless zombies who didn't make it through, and you couldn't look at the poor wretches without thinking "there but for the grace of Sylvanas, go I".

And you weren't forced into military service from the first minute, either. Oh no, you could go on your merry way, if you wished... but once you've ran into the local Scarlet zealots, the venomous local fauna, the roaming feral Scourge and the pitchwork-happy peasants, it became sensible and reasonable to seek safety in numbers, if only for a while. I'm not claiming that Sylvanas and Varimathras deliberately left these threats alive/active to herd the newly awakened undead into the fold... but if they did, it was a very subtle and brilliant move.

Their actual art of warfare was far superior in pre-WrathGate days, as well. Back then, the Forsaken didn't have any cheesy faceroll plague superweapon; instead, they used actual tactics (see my earlier remark about High Executors). Like a well-oiled Gladiator machine tearing apart a disorganized PUG raid, they systematically dismantled the opposition, disrupting the enemy's supply lines, striking at the weakest targets to destroy their morale, assassinating key figures in the chain of command and isolating their foe from allied support.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Dantriges » Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:20 am

Seems that part of it is still there. They converted Lord Godfrey in Gilneas if I remember his name correctly. Probably needed him, too, because they had no real current intel about Gilneas. The nation closed his gates after te second war. Also it seems to me that they had more problems with Gilneas and the worgen than anticipated. A possible other reason could be that the Forsaken lost quite a bit of their military in the war against the Lichking. It was a more personal fight for them than the other nations. And I could imagine that fighting the Scourge was a more personal thing for Arthas than kiling orcs and Scourge forces attacked them more than others. It´s a bit sad that we don´t see much of what happens besides your personal way fighting the Scourge.

So perhaps they lost a disproportonate part of their military. Then Undercity had a rebellion. Probably the RAS and allies eliminated a chunk of the military in the process. And I could imagine that perhaps some Forsaken committed suicide/lost the will to go on after Wrath. Not sure what happens if an individual Forsaken loses his driving ambition and killing Arthas was probably one drivin ambition for many of them. But that´s idle speculation. The Val´kyr thing seems to be quite recent, too, so they started rebuilding their forces later than others who recruited from the new generation grown up since then. Could be that the hadn´t time to train their new raises. Would also explain why you are forced into military service. Besides the Horde is at war. Not sure if the fighting actually increased or decresed after the fall of the Scourge.

So perhaps the forsaken army is really weaker than previously and the plague bombs cover their weaknesses. Some stuff I mentioned is speculation but the games texts states that the Forsaken had a manpower problem before their new method of reproduction.

Another qquestion. I only see the same three val´kyr appearing in the quest lines. Does Sylvanas have any other val´kyr besides the three who sacrificed theirexistance to save her?
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:40 am

There are dozens of Val'kyr when Sylvanas brings them to Andorhal.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Flex » Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:14 am

Passionario wrote:The post-Cata changes to the Forsaken are borderline retcons as well, IMO.

Back in the day, we didn't have this "slavery vs. death choice" dilemma. You started out as a freshly awakened ex-Scourge undead. The initial quests made it fairly clear that it was a good thing to be Forsaken, considering the alternative; in fact, the second quest your character received asked you to put down a dozen of mindless zombies who didn't make it through, and you couldn't look at the poor wretches without thinking "there but for the grace of Sylvanas, go I".


Not sure how that is a borderline retcon, the source of the Forsaken is completely different without invalidating pre-Cataclysm Forsaken.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:36 am

Sagara wrote:Oh and I wanted to quote you on that one - go and listen to Paletress at the Argent tournament, the Three are definitly presented. It's an interesting piece of lore in itself, btw - the first mass we see in the game?


Good catch, I forgot about that.

However from the same NPC...

Undercity Champion says: I punched a penguin on my way in here.
Argent Confessor Paletress says: Oh, my. Do you feel remorseful, at least?
Undercity Champion says: Nah, not really. I just wanted to see the look on your face.
(At this point Paletress turns around and leaves the confessional area. After the Undercity Champion stops laughing, he waves at her and goes back to his seat.)
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby lythac » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:06 am

Nice to see the Forsaken have humour.

Also after watching Happy Feet, you would want to punch a penguin.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sagara » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:11 am

Sabindeus wrote:
Sagara wrote:Oh and I wanted to quote you on that one - go and listen to Paletress at the Argent tournament, the Three are definitly presented. It's an interesting piece of lore in itself, btw - the first mass we see in the game?


Good catch, I forgot about that.

However from the same NPC...

Undercity Champion says: I punched a penguin on my way in here.
Argent Confessor Paletress says: Oh, my. Do you feel remorseful, at least?
Undercity Champion says: Nah, not really. I just wanted to see the look on your face.
(At this point Paletress turns around and leaves the confessional area. After the Undercity Champion stops laughing, he waves at her and goes back to his seat.)


Yeah, he's a pretty nasty piece of work that one :lol:

Still, Paletress does drive the point home - she doesn't go all Light-smashing around (which she proved perfectly capable of in the instance). Restraint must be our master word (yeah, big words from a BE :D ) if we don't want to fall.

Now, to be perfectly honest, I would have driven the lesson home if I were her, probably going Harry Dresden on his butt (a scene I adored in the book "Blood Rites")

Q: Lucky for you, she's good people.
UC: *laughs*
Q: Unlucky for you, I'm not as much.
*Fist to the face, chop down 3 limbs*
Q: *while attaching limbs to the belt* There's needle and thread back at the Horde camp. If you crawl there, I'm sure they'll help you attach those back. Oh, and next time? The head goes off. Bye!

Hell, we're Paladins, sometimes people need to remember we CAN back up our threats and sermons. But because this one Forsaken acts like a d*ck, doesn't mean they're all beyond the Light.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Dantriges » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:43 am

The UC probably dared to behave like this because the Argent Crusade called for peace at the tournament.
Last edited by Dantriges on Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:46 am

Sagara wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:
Sagara wrote:Oh and I wanted to quote you on that one - go and listen to Paletress at the Argent tournament, the Three are definitly presented. It's an interesting piece of lore in itself, btw - the first mass we see in the game?


Good catch, I forgot about that.

However from the same NPC...

Undercity Champion says: I punched a penguin on my way in here.
Argent Confessor Paletress says: Oh, my. Do you feel remorseful, at least?
Undercity Champion says: Nah, not really. I just wanted to see the look on your face.
(At this point Paletress turns around and leaves the confessional area. After the Undercity Champion stops laughing, he waves at her and goes back to his seat.)


Yeah, he's a pretty nasty piece of work that one :lol:

Still, Paletress does drive the point home - she doesn't go all Light-smashing around (which she proved perfectly capable of in the instance). Restraint must be our master word (yeah, big words from a BE :D ) if we don't want to fall.


I'm not sure that I see any reason for that to be true just because Paletress, a Priestess who belongs to the Argent Crusade and has turned her back on the Alliance, acts that way.

Hell, we're Paladins, sometimes people need to remember we CAN back up our threats and sermons. But because this one Forsaken acts like a d*ck, doesn't mean they're all beyond the Light.

No the fact that the Light actively sears their flesh and causes them pain is what means they're all beyond it.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sagara » Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:49 am

Truly? Massive interaction with the Light has caused some reactions beyond mere pain - there's something inside the rotting flesh. And once again, you're mistaking undeath and the undead.

Undeath is our anathema, the undead are beings touched by that anathema. It's possible that undeath does not force evil - undeath tempts to evil by torturing those who suffer it.

I'll posit a wild guessing: what if the pain that the Light causes is a reaction of undeath to the presence of Light? Being burned away by the light, undeath torments its host to have it flee or destroy the Light. I it so hard to believe that one can go beyond the petiness undeath causes and become the master of one's un-life?
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:20 am

The only correct choice for an undead person to make is to be put out his misery. Undeath is not life, it is not living.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:20 am

Sagara wrote:Truly? Massive interaction with the Light has caused some reactions beyond mere pain - there's something inside the rotting flesh. And once again, you're mistaking undeath and the undead.

Is this referring to something specific?
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sagara » Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:47 am

Sabindeus wrote:
Sagara wrote:Truly? Massive interaction with the Light has caused some reactions beyond mere pain - there's something inside the rotting flesh. And once again, you're mistaking undeath and the undead.

Is this referring to something specific?


Lore Q&A from a couple of weeks ago, i'll go and dig it in a moment.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sagara » Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:51 am

Found:

Q: Are there long-term effects on an undead who is in regular contact with the Holy Light in a positive way?

A: It is difficult to say, as there are no known records of undead wielding the Holy Light before the Third War. There are reports, however, that some Forsaken have slowly experienced a sharpening of their dulled senses of touch, smell, etc., as well as an increase in the flashes of positive emotions that have otherwise become so rare since their fall into undeath. Unfortunately, this may be the cause of the Forsaken priesthood's increased attempts at self-destruction; regaining these senses would force the priests to smell their own rotting flesh, taste the decay in their mouths and throats, and even feel the maggots burrowing within their bodies.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Aerron » Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:17 pm

Sagara wrote:Found:

Q: Are there long-term effects on an undead who is in regular contact with the Holy Light in a positive way?

A: It is difficult to say, as there are no known records of undead wielding the Holy Light before the Third War. There are reports, however, that some Forsaken have slowly experienced a sharpening of their dulled senses of touch, smell, etc., as well as an increase in the flashes of positive emotions that have otherwise become so rare since their fall into undeath. Unfortunately, this may be the cause of the Forsaken priesthood's increased attempts at self-destruction; regaining these senses would force the priests to smell their own rotting flesh, taste the decay in their mouths and throats, and even feel the maggots burrowing within their bodies.


So what this is telling me is ... if they were fully/truly aware of their condition, they would seek to end it.

Fair enough.
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