Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby halabar » Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:07 pm

Sabindeus wrote:I am really not sure I buy corrupted oxygen-starved decaying as the condition of a forsaken raised by necromancy.


Well, if you are implying that there are other influences driving their thoughts and decisions, then that opens a whole new pandora's box of possibilities, and responsibilities for a paladin to respond to.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:54 pm

halabar wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:I am really not sure I buy corrupted oxygen-starved decaying as the condition of a forsaken raised by necromancy.


Well, if you are implying that there are other influences driving their thoughts and decisions, then that opens a whole new pandora's box of possibilities, and responsibilities for a paladin to respond to.


Well the way I see it from running the intro undead quest chains, the mental state of newly raised Forsaken is irrelevant. They are given a non-choice in what to do with their undeath. And I mean that not just from the obvious game mechanics point of view, but the way the writers have presented it turns the obvious game mechanic lack of choice into a fully story based lack of choice.

They can either follow Sylvanas, or:
1. Attempt to stick to their original anti-undead principles and be re-killed.
2. Attempt to go back to their old lives, and be treated as an abomination.

Like i said, there's really no choice to be made here. Forsaken are born into servitude.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sagara » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:40 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
halabar wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:I am really not sure I buy corrupted oxygen-starved decaying as the condition of a forsaken raised by necromancy.


Well, if you are implying that there are other influences driving their thoughts and decisions, then that opens a whole new pandora's box of possibilities, and responsibilities for a paladin to respond to.


Well the way I see it from running the intro undead quest chains, the mental state of newly raised Forsaken is irrelevant. They are given a non-choice in what to do with their undeath. And I mean that not just from the obvious game mechanics point of view, but the way the writers have presented it turns the obvious game mechanic lack of choice into a fully story based lack of choice.

They can either follow Sylvanas, or:
1. Attempt to stick to their original anti-undead principles and be re-killed.
2. Attempt to go back to their old lives, and be treated as an abomination.

Like i said, there's really no choice to be made here. Forsaken are born into servitude.


Difficult to defend though - at least the Forsaken give a choice. There's nothing enjoyable to the choice, yes, but there is a choice still.

As a paldin I'd rather the choice no longer exist, as it makes a mockery of life and is clearly anathema to the Light, but we cannot forget the Virtues - are we making the world a better place by throwing every last Forsaken in the same bag as Putress and wipe the lot of them? We are after all taking the fate of thinking beings as ours to decide. This is Arthas' path. Would the dead rather stay dead? They cannot speak up for themselves.

It is a dark and dangerous path of grays that is being tread by paladins everywhere. On one extreme, we leave an evil be, that could destroy all we hold dear. On the other, we put our jugement above each and every Forsaken on Azeroth. None of the paths are correct, and we must find the balance that the Light seeks.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:44 pm

Sagara wrote:Difficult to defend though - at least the Forsaken give a choice. There's nothing enjoyable to the choice, yes, but there is a choice still.


But that is my point, it's NOT a choice. A choice between slavery and death is not a real choice.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Flex » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:50 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Sagara wrote:Difficult to defend though - at least the Forsaken give a choice. There's nothing enjoyable to the choice, yes, but there is a choice still.


But that is my point, it's NOT a choice. A choice between slavery and death is not a real choice.


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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sagara » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:04 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Sagara wrote:Difficult to defend though - at least the Forsaken give a choice. There's nothing enjoyable to the choice, yes, but there is a choice still.


But that is my point, it's NOT a choice. A choice between slavery and death is not a real choice.


I get that. Like I said, I'd rather the choice not exist. It's a mockery of everything we stand for.
But STILL! We can't blame the raised for being raised... Being Forsaken is a horrible situation, but we as Paladins have no right to judge their status as undead. No matter how much it is our antithesis, we CANNOT stoop to their level and kill them on a mere hunch. Acting like that is the very same slippery slope Arthas followed.

I said it was harsh. But I continue to believe in it.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:53 pm

Sagara wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:
Sagara wrote:Difficult to defend though - at least the Forsaken give a choice. There's nothing enjoyable to the choice, yes, but there is a choice still.


But that is my point, it's NOT a choice. A choice between slavery and death is not a real choice.


I get that. Like I said, I'd rather the choice not exist. It's a mockery of everything we stand for.
But STILL! We can't blame the raised for being raised... Being Forsaken is a horrible situation, but we as Paladins have no right to judge their status as undead. No matter how much it is our antithesis, we CANNOT stoop to their level and kill them on a mere hunch. Acting like that is the very same slippery slope Arthas followed.

I said it was harsh. But I continue to believe in it.


See that sort of thinking is where my rage at the retcons in WoW comes in. As a Paladin I used to have this ability called Holy Light, which just damaged undead! Then there was Exorcism, which replaced Holy Light in my spellbook when Blizzard decided Holy Light should just have one function. Then I also had an ability called Turn Undead which made the undead flee in terror. Both these are powers granted to me by the Light to destroy the abominations... But then suddenly the Forsaken stopped being vulnerable to these spells! Sure, Blizzard came up with a retcon story reason for what was really a point of PVP balance, but that imo shouldn't mean the Forsaken stop being abominations. I don't see it as a slippery slope at all. Undead are bad, we kill them. Real simple.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sagara » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:03 pm

If it comes to that then I will stand against you.

I have been in very similar shoes - we sin'dorei abused the Light, and made a mockery of it. We were judged, and not all were found wanting.

I will stand for those who wish for a chance to be in this world, in peace. This is the Three Virtues. This is the Light.
When that day comes, seek all the light and wonder of this world, and fight.

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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby halabar » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:07 pm

Sagara wrote: Would the dead rather stay dead? They cannot speak up for themselves.


So, should we raise them all and ask them?..

Or perhaps have them file form FR-34524 prior to death stating their wish not to be reanimated.

Finally, let there be a paladin there ready and waiting when they are raised to make sure there is a proper choice given, and if the choice is death, the paladin can administer that quickly?.. :wink:
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:14 pm

Sagara wrote:If it comes to that then I will stand against you.

I have been in very similar shoes - we sin'dorei abused the Light, and made a mockery of it. We were judged, and not all were found wanting.

I will stand for those who wish for a chance to be in this world, in peace. This is the Three Virtues. This is the Light.


1. The "Three Virtues" are not canon, they're from the Warcraft RPG books which are expansions on the universe but not considered canon material by Blizzard the way the games and novels and comics are.

2. You're a blood elf so you'd stand against me anyway. My character would ask for neither your approval nor forgiveness as he doesn't believe Blood Knights understand the meaning of the Light in the first place. :P
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:14 pm

halabar wrote:
Sagara wrote: Would the dead rather stay dead? They cannot speak up for themselves.


So, should we raise them all and ask them?..

Or perhaps have them file form FR-34524 prior to death stating their wish not to be reanimated.

Finally, let there be a paladin there ready and waiting when they are raised to make sure there is a proper choice given, and if the choice is death, the paladin can administer that quickly?.. :wink:


Maybe we should all just respect the natural order of things and let the dead stay dead regardless of their choice, eh? Otherwise you get this.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sagara » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:21 pm

halabar wrote:
Sagara wrote: Would the dead rather stay dead? They cannot speak up for themselves.


So, should we raise them all and ask them?..

Or perhaps have them file form FR-34524 prior to death stating their wish not to be reanimated.

Finally, let there be a paladin there ready and waiting when they are raised to make sure there is a proper choice given, and if the choice is death, the paladin can administer that quickly?.. :wink:


Yeah, it's idealistic *shrugs* than again, if people of the Light cannot be the ideal, where will people look to for guidance?

I think that's the crux of the situation: there are NO good choices. In many ways, as paladins, we should come to terms with the fact that we're going to have to play Light. It's Uther and Arthas all over again, with both sides being wrong...
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sagara » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:57 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Sagara wrote:If it comes to that then I will stand against you.

I have been in very similar shoes - we sin'dorei abused the Light, and made a mockery of it. We were judged, and not all were found wanting.

I will stand for those who wish for a chance to be in this world, in peace. This is the Three Virtues. This is the Light.


1. The "Three Virtues" are not canon, they're from the Warcraft RPG books which are expansions on the universe but not considered canon material by Blizzard the way the games and novels and comics are.

2. You're a blood elf so you'd stand against me anyway. My character would ask for neither your approval nor forgiveness as he doesn't believe Blood Knights understand the meaning of the Light in the first place. :P


Oh and I wanted to quote you on that one - go and listen to Paletress at the Argent tournament, the Three are definitly presented. It's an interesting piece of lore in itself, btw - the first mass we see in the game?
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Dantriges » Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:23 pm

Yes she mentions all three virtues.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sagara » Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:03 pm

Dantriges wrote:Yes he mentions all three virtues.


She. Unless Paletress is hiding some... thing...

*shudders* If you'll excuse me, I need some brain bleach.
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