Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby halabar » Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:07 pm

Sabindeus wrote:I am really not sure I buy corrupted oxygen-starved decaying as the condition of a forsaken raised by necromancy.


Well, if you are implying that there are other influences driving their thoughts and decisions, then that opens a whole new pandora's box of possibilities, and responsibilities for a paladin to respond to.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:54 pm

halabar wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:I am really not sure I buy corrupted oxygen-starved decaying as the condition of a forsaken raised by necromancy.


Well, if you are implying that there are other influences driving their thoughts and decisions, then that opens a whole new pandora's box of possibilities, and responsibilities for a paladin to respond to.


Well the way I see it from running the intro undead quest chains, the mental state of newly raised Forsaken is irrelevant. They are given a non-choice in what to do with their undeath. And I mean that not just from the obvious game mechanics point of view, but the way the writers have presented it turns the obvious game mechanic lack of choice into a fully story based lack of choice.

They can either follow Sylvanas, or:
1. Attempt to stick to their original anti-undead principles and be re-killed.
2. Attempt to go back to their old lives, and be treated as an abomination.

Like i said, there's really no choice to be made here. Forsaken are born into servitude.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sagara » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:40 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
halabar wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:I am really not sure I buy corrupted oxygen-starved decaying as the condition of a forsaken raised by necromancy.


Well, if you are implying that there are other influences driving their thoughts and decisions, then that opens a whole new pandora's box of possibilities, and responsibilities for a paladin to respond to.


Well the way I see it from running the intro undead quest chains, the mental state of newly raised Forsaken is irrelevant. They are given a non-choice in what to do with their undeath. And I mean that not just from the obvious game mechanics point of view, but the way the writers have presented it turns the obvious game mechanic lack of choice into a fully story based lack of choice.

They can either follow Sylvanas, or:
1. Attempt to stick to their original anti-undead principles and be re-killed.
2. Attempt to go back to their old lives, and be treated as an abomination.

Like i said, there's really no choice to be made here. Forsaken are born into servitude.


Difficult to defend though - at least the Forsaken give a choice. There's nothing enjoyable to the choice, yes, but there is a choice still.

As a paldin I'd rather the choice no longer exist, as it makes a mockery of life and is clearly anathema to the Light, but we cannot forget the Virtues - are we making the world a better place by throwing every last Forsaken in the same bag as Putress and wipe the lot of them? We are after all taking the fate of thinking beings as ours to decide. This is Arthas' path. Would the dead rather stay dead? They cannot speak up for themselves.

It is a dark and dangerous path of grays that is being tread by paladins everywhere. On one extreme, we leave an evil be, that could destroy all we hold dear. On the other, we put our jugement above each and every Forsaken on Azeroth. None of the paths are correct, and we must find the balance that the Light seeks.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:44 pm

Sagara wrote:Difficult to defend though - at least the Forsaken give a choice. There's nothing enjoyable to the choice, yes, but there is a choice still.


But that is my point, it's NOT a choice. A choice between slavery and death is not a real choice.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Flex » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:50 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Sagara wrote:Difficult to defend though - at least the Forsaken give a choice. There's nothing enjoyable to the choice, yes, but there is a choice still.


But that is my point, it's NOT a choice. A choice between slavery and death is not a real choice.


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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sagara » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:04 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Sagara wrote:Difficult to defend though - at least the Forsaken give a choice. There's nothing enjoyable to the choice, yes, but there is a choice still.


But that is my point, it's NOT a choice. A choice between slavery and death is not a real choice.


I get that. Like I said, I'd rather the choice not exist. It's a mockery of everything we stand for.
But STILL! We can't blame the raised for being raised... Being Forsaken is a horrible situation, but we as Paladins have no right to judge their status as undead. No matter how much it is our antithesis, we CANNOT stoop to their level and kill them on a mere hunch. Acting like that is the very same slippery slope Arthas followed.

I said it was harsh. But I continue to believe in it.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:53 pm

Sagara wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:
Sagara wrote:Difficult to defend though - at least the Forsaken give a choice. There's nothing enjoyable to the choice, yes, but there is a choice still.


But that is my point, it's NOT a choice. A choice between slavery and death is not a real choice.


I get that. Like I said, I'd rather the choice not exist. It's a mockery of everything we stand for.
But STILL! We can't blame the raised for being raised... Being Forsaken is a horrible situation, but we as Paladins have no right to judge their status as undead. No matter how much it is our antithesis, we CANNOT stoop to their level and kill them on a mere hunch. Acting like that is the very same slippery slope Arthas followed.

I said it was harsh. But I continue to believe in it.


See that sort of thinking is where my rage at the retcons in WoW comes in. As a Paladin I used to have this ability called Holy Light, which just damaged undead! Then there was Exorcism, which replaced Holy Light in my spellbook when Blizzard decided Holy Light should just have one function. Then I also had an ability called Turn Undead which made the undead flee in terror. Both these are powers granted to me by the Light to destroy the abominations... But then suddenly the Forsaken stopped being vulnerable to these spells! Sure, Blizzard came up with a retcon story reason for what was really a point of PVP balance, but that imo shouldn't mean the Forsaken stop being abominations. I don't see it as a slippery slope at all. Undead are bad, we kill them. Real simple.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sagara » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:03 pm

If it comes to that then I will stand against you.

I have been in very similar shoes - we sin'dorei abused the Light, and made a mockery of it. We were judged, and not all were found wanting.

I will stand for those who wish for a chance to be in this world, in peace. This is the Three Virtues. This is the Light.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby halabar » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:07 pm

Sagara wrote: Would the dead rather stay dead? They cannot speak up for themselves.


So, should we raise them all and ask them?..

Or perhaps have them file form FR-34524 prior to death stating their wish not to be reanimated.

Finally, let there be a paladin there ready and waiting when they are raised to make sure there is a proper choice given, and if the choice is death, the paladin can administer that quickly?.. :wink:
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:14 pm

Sagara wrote:If it comes to that then I will stand against you.

I have been in very similar shoes - we sin'dorei abused the Light, and made a mockery of it. We were judged, and not all were found wanting.

I will stand for those who wish for a chance to be in this world, in peace. This is the Three Virtues. This is the Light.


1. The "Three Virtues" are not canon, they're from the Warcraft RPG books which are expansions on the universe but not considered canon material by Blizzard the way the games and novels and comics are.

2. You're a blood elf so you'd stand against me anyway. My character would ask for neither your approval nor forgiveness as he doesn't believe Blood Knights understand the meaning of the Light in the first place. :P
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:14 pm

halabar wrote:
Sagara wrote: Would the dead rather stay dead? They cannot speak up for themselves.


So, should we raise them all and ask them?..

Or perhaps have them file form FR-34524 prior to death stating their wish not to be reanimated.

Finally, let there be a paladin there ready and waiting when they are raised to make sure there is a proper choice given, and if the choice is death, the paladin can administer that quickly?.. :wink:


Maybe we should all just respect the natural order of things and let the dead stay dead regardless of their choice, eh? Otherwise you get this.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sagara » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:21 pm

halabar wrote:
Sagara wrote: Would the dead rather stay dead? They cannot speak up for themselves.


So, should we raise them all and ask them?..

Or perhaps have them file form FR-34524 prior to death stating their wish not to be reanimated.

Finally, let there be a paladin there ready and waiting when they are raised to make sure there is a proper choice given, and if the choice is death, the paladin can administer that quickly?.. :wink:


Yeah, it's idealistic *shrugs* than again, if people of the Light cannot be the ideal, where will people look to for guidance?

I think that's the crux of the situation: there are NO good choices. In many ways, as paladins, we should come to terms with the fact that we're going to have to play Light. It's Uther and Arthas all over again, with both sides being wrong...
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sagara » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:57 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Sagara wrote:If it comes to that then I will stand against you.

I have been in very similar shoes - we sin'dorei abused the Light, and made a mockery of it. We were judged, and not all were found wanting.

I will stand for those who wish for a chance to be in this world, in peace. This is the Three Virtues. This is the Light.


1. The "Three Virtues" are not canon, they're from the Warcraft RPG books which are expansions on the universe but not considered canon material by Blizzard the way the games and novels and comics are.

2. You're a blood elf so you'd stand against me anyway. My character would ask for neither your approval nor forgiveness as he doesn't believe Blood Knights understand the meaning of the Light in the first place. :P


Oh and I wanted to quote you on that one - go and listen to Paletress at the Argent tournament, the Three are definitly presented. It's an interesting piece of lore in itself, btw - the first mass we see in the game?
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Dantriges » Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:23 pm

Yes she mentions all three virtues.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sagara » Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:03 pm

Dantriges wrote:Yes he mentions all three virtues.


She. Unless Paletress is hiding some... thing...

*shudders* If you'll excuse me, I need some brain bleach.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Passionario » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:03 am

Sabindeus wrote:See that sort of thinking is where my rage at the retcons in WoW comes in.


The post-Cata changes to the Forsaken are borderline retcons as well, IMO.

Back in the day, we didn't have this "slavery vs. death choice" dilemma. You started out as a freshly awakened ex-Scourge undead. The initial quests made it fairly clear that it was a good thing to be Forsaken, considering the alternative; in fact, the second quest your character received asked you to put down a dozen of mindless zombies who didn't make it through, and you couldn't look at the poor wretches without thinking "there but for the grace of Sylvanas, go I".

And you weren't forced into military service from the first minute, either. Oh no, you could go on your merry way, if you wished... but once you've ran into the local Scarlet zealots, the venomous local fauna, the roaming feral Scourge and the pitchwork-happy peasants, it became sensible and reasonable to seek safety in numbers, if only for a while. I'm not claiming that Sylvanas and Varimathras deliberately left these threats alive/active to herd the newly awakened undead into the fold... but if they did, it was a very subtle and brilliant move.

Their actual art of warfare was far superior in pre-WrathGate days, as well. Back then, the Forsaken didn't have any cheesy faceroll plague superweapon; instead, they used actual tactics (see my earlier remark about High Executors). Like a well-oiled Gladiator machine tearing apart a disorganized PUG raid, they systematically dismantled the opposition, disrupting the enemy's supply lines, striking at the weakest targets to destroy their morale, assassinating key figures in the chain of command and isolating their foe from allied support.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Dantriges » Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:20 am

Seems that part of it is still there. They converted Lord Godfrey in Gilneas if I remember his name correctly. Probably needed him, too, because they had no real current intel about Gilneas. The nation closed his gates after te second war. Also it seems to me that they had more problems with Gilneas and the worgen than anticipated. A possible other reason could be that the Forsaken lost quite a bit of their military in the war against the Lichking. It was a more personal fight for them than the other nations. And I could imagine that fighting the Scourge was a more personal thing for Arthas than kiling orcs and Scourge forces attacked them more than others. It´s a bit sad that we don´t see much of what happens besides your personal way fighting the Scourge.

So perhaps they lost a disproportonate part of their military. Then Undercity had a rebellion. Probably the RAS and allies eliminated a chunk of the military in the process. And I could imagine that perhaps some Forsaken committed suicide/lost the will to go on after Wrath. Not sure what happens if an individual Forsaken loses his driving ambition and killing Arthas was probably one drivin ambition for many of them. But that´s idle speculation. The Val´kyr thing seems to be quite recent, too, so they started rebuilding their forces later than others who recruited from the new generation grown up since then. Could be that the hadn´t time to train their new raises. Would also explain why you are forced into military service. Besides the Horde is at war. Not sure if the fighting actually increased or decresed after the fall of the Scourge.

So perhaps the forsaken army is really weaker than previously and the plague bombs cover their weaknesses. Some stuff I mentioned is speculation but the games texts states that the Forsaken had a manpower problem before their new method of reproduction.

Another qquestion. I only see the same three val´kyr appearing in the quest lines. Does Sylvanas have any other val´kyr besides the three who sacrificed theirexistance to save her?
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:40 am

There are dozens of Val'kyr when Sylvanas brings them to Andorhal.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Flex » Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:14 am

Passionario wrote:The post-Cata changes to the Forsaken are borderline retcons as well, IMO.

Back in the day, we didn't have this "slavery vs. death choice" dilemma. You started out as a freshly awakened ex-Scourge undead. The initial quests made it fairly clear that it was a good thing to be Forsaken, considering the alternative; in fact, the second quest your character received asked you to put down a dozen of mindless zombies who didn't make it through, and you couldn't look at the poor wretches without thinking "there but for the grace of Sylvanas, go I".


Not sure how that is a borderline retcon, the source of the Forsaken is completely different without invalidating pre-Cataclysm Forsaken.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:36 am

Sagara wrote:Oh and I wanted to quote you on that one - go and listen to Paletress at the Argent tournament, the Three are definitly presented. It's an interesting piece of lore in itself, btw - the first mass we see in the game?


Good catch, I forgot about that.

However from the same NPC...

Undercity Champion says: I punched a penguin on my way in here.
Argent Confessor Paletress says: Oh, my. Do you feel remorseful, at least?
Undercity Champion says: Nah, not really. I just wanted to see the look on your face.
(At this point Paletress turns around and leaves the confessional area. After the Undercity Champion stops laughing, he waves at her and goes back to his seat.)
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby lythac » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:06 am

Nice to see the Forsaken have humour.

Also after watching Happy Feet, you would want to punch a penguin.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sagara » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:11 am

Sabindeus wrote:
Sagara wrote:Oh and I wanted to quote you on that one - go and listen to Paletress at the Argent tournament, the Three are definitly presented. It's an interesting piece of lore in itself, btw - the first mass we see in the game?


Good catch, I forgot about that.

However from the same NPC...

Undercity Champion says: I punched a penguin on my way in here.
Argent Confessor Paletress says: Oh, my. Do you feel remorseful, at least?
Undercity Champion says: Nah, not really. I just wanted to see the look on your face.
(At this point Paletress turns around and leaves the confessional area. After the Undercity Champion stops laughing, he waves at her and goes back to his seat.)


Yeah, he's a pretty nasty piece of work that one :lol:

Still, Paletress does drive the point home - she doesn't go all Light-smashing around (which she proved perfectly capable of in the instance). Restraint must be our master word (yeah, big words from a BE :D ) if we don't want to fall.

Now, to be perfectly honest, I would have driven the lesson home if I were her, probably going Harry Dresden on his butt (a scene I adored in the book "Blood Rites")

Q: Lucky for you, she's good people.
UC: *laughs*
Q: Unlucky for you, I'm not as much.
*Fist to the face, chop down 3 limbs*
Q: *while attaching limbs to the belt* There's needle and thread back at the Horde camp. If you crawl there, I'm sure they'll help you attach those back. Oh, and next time? The head goes off. Bye!

Hell, we're Paladins, sometimes people need to remember we CAN back up our threats and sermons. But because this one Forsaken acts like a d*ck, doesn't mean they're all beyond the Light.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Dantriges » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:43 am

The UC probably dared to behave like this because the Argent Crusade called for peace at the tournament.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:46 am

Sagara wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:
Sagara wrote:Oh and I wanted to quote you on that one - go and listen to Paletress at the Argent tournament, the Three are definitly presented. It's an interesting piece of lore in itself, btw - the first mass we see in the game?


Good catch, I forgot about that.

However from the same NPC...

Undercity Champion says: I punched a penguin on my way in here.
Argent Confessor Paletress says: Oh, my. Do you feel remorseful, at least?
Undercity Champion says: Nah, not really. I just wanted to see the look on your face.
(At this point Paletress turns around and leaves the confessional area. After the Undercity Champion stops laughing, he waves at her and goes back to his seat.)


Yeah, he's a pretty nasty piece of work that one :lol:

Still, Paletress does drive the point home - she doesn't go all Light-smashing around (which she proved perfectly capable of in the instance). Restraint must be our master word (yeah, big words from a BE :D ) if we don't want to fall.


I'm not sure that I see any reason for that to be true just because Paletress, a Priestess who belongs to the Argent Crusade and has turned her back on the Alliance, acts that way.

Hell, we're Paladins, sometimes people need to remember we CAN back up our threats and sermons. But because this one Forsaken acts like a d*ck, doesn't mean they're all beyond the Light.

No the fact that the Light actively sears their flesh and causes them pain is what means they're all beyond it.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sagara » Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:49 am

Truly? Massive interaction with the Light has caused some reactions beyond mere pain - there's something inside the rotting flesh. And once again, you're mistaking undeath and the undead.

Undeath is our anathema, the undead are beings touched by that anathema. It's possible that undeath does not force evil - undeath tempts to evil by torturing those who suffer it.

I'll posit a wild guessing: what if the pain that the Light causes is a reaction of undeath to the presence of Light? Being burned away by the light, undeath torments its host to have it flee or destroy the Light. I it so hard to believe that one can go beyond the petiness undeath causes and become the master of one's un-life?
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