Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:26 am

Dantriges wrote: I don´t know if you could call the dwarven council leadership but I don´t know why the Bronzebeard let in the Dark Irons. Moira is the daugter of Magni but well, he has two other brothers who could take the mantle.


After Magni turned to stone, Moira came in and claimed her right of succession, and technically she was correct, so no one could argue with her. The Dwarves actually adhere to their monarchy and the rules thereof. She then brought her Dark Iron dwarves in with her. The only reason we managed a council with Muradin and Falstad attending was because Varian came in and basically forced her to give up total control of Ironforge. (in no small part because Moira kidnapped Anduin hoping it would give her leverage over Stormwind, but our prince was too clever for her!) Read The Sundering if you want the full story on how that went down.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Dantriges » Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:48 am

Sabindeus wrote:
Sagara wrote:The second problem, and the one that strains Elven/Horde relationships is, simply put, Sylvanas' actions. I could not believe that BE leadership does not consider her at the very least a potential hazard: even with the bestest intentions (yeah right), all it takes is one stupid explosion to blow plague god knows where.


Sylvanas is the only reason the Blood Elves were accepted into the Horde in the first place.


And?

Relationships change, relationships end. How many people marry their first girl/boyfriend or stay with them their whole life? Happens but not so often.

Alliances are made between nations because they share similar goals, enemies or they benefit otherwise from it.

So I have to ask because I really don´t know. What do the Blood Elves gain from being members of the Horde? Ok the Forsaken helped them in a time of crisis. That´s very nice. A lot of nations offered help or helped Japan when it was hit by a natural disaster. The japanese are probably grateful for that and will help (if able) other nations in a time of need. They probably don´t march to war for them or enter supernational alliances just because of that.

It seems to me at least that the Elves and the rest don´t share so much in culture/common goals, etc. The blood elves probably don´t like the humans but it seems to me that they don´t have this huge amount of hatred that the orcs have against the humans. Disliking someone doesn´t mean you bash his head in.

And well Sylvanas got something out of the deal. She hated the Scourge, the bloodelves hated the Scourge. Both were adjacent to Scourge strongholds in Northern Lordaeron. She got a second front against the Scourge.

And well seems that the bloodelves are now members by their own merit. Sylvanas and Garrosh had some quarrels lately, if these ever turn even more violent, like Sylvanas killing her orcish guard, Silvermoon would probably have to chose between rest Horde and Forsaken. So I think they watch Sylvanas actions very closely. An orcish military expedition would probably request at least logistical support and supplies from Silvermoon if not actual troops.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:05 am

Dantriges wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:
Sagara wrote:The second problem, and the one that strains Elven/Horde relationships is, simply put, Sylvanas' actions. I could not believe that BE leadership does not consider her at the very least a potential hazard: even with the bestest intentions (yeah right), all it takes is one stupid explosion to blow plague god knows where.


Sylvanas is the only reason the Blood Elves were accepted into the Horde in the first place.


And?

Relationships change, relationships end. How many people marry their first girl/boyfriend or stay with them their whole life? Happens but not so often.

Alliances are made between nations because they share similar goals, enemies or they benefit otherwise from it.

So I have to ask because I really don´t know. What do the Blood Elves gain from being members of the Horde? Ok the Forsaken helped them in a time of crisis. That´s very nice. A lot of nations offered help or helped Japan when it was hit by a natural disaster. The japanese are probably grateful for that and will help (if able) other nations in a time of need. They probably don´t march to war for them or enter supernational alliances just because of that.

It seems to me at least that the Elves and the rest don´t share so much in culture/common goals, etc. The blood elves probably don´t like the humans but it seems to me that they don´t have this huge amount of hatred that the orcs have against the humans. Disliking someone doesn´t mean you bash his head in.

And well Sylvanas got something out of the deal. She hated the Scourge, the bloodelves hated the Scourge. Both were adjacent to Scourge strongholds in Northern Lordaeron. She got a second front against the Scourge.

And well seems that the bloodelves are now members by their own merit. Sylvanas and Garrosh had some quarrels lately, if these ever turn even more violent, like Sylvanas killing her orcish guard, Silvermoon would probably have to chose between rest Horde and Forsaken. So I think they watch Sylvanas actions very closely. An orcish military expedition would probably request at least logistical support and supplies from Silvermoon if not actual troops.


I mean, you do have a very good point. Since accepting the help of the Forsaken in reclaiming Quel'Thelas, and then being formally accepted into the Horde, the Blood Elves have taken a more active role in the Horde's military and political actions, so you can hardly say that Sylvanas is any sort of linchpin in this arrangement anymore.

At the same time I am sure that despite her current undead disposition, not many elves have forgotten when Sylvanas was in fact their Ranger-General, and then came back to help eradicate the scourge from Quel'thelas, and introduce them to their new Horde allies. I don't think they are going to be quick to look at her as a threat.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby halabar » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:39 am

Sabindeus wrote:At the same time I am sure that despite her current undead disposition, not many elves have forgotten when Sylvanas was in fact their Ranger-General, and then came back to help eradicate the scourge from Quel'thelas, and introduce them to their new Horde allies. I don't think they are going to be quick to look at her as a threat.


Ahh, the irony. One day Sylvanas or her successor will lead the plague spreaders to Quel'thelas for the second invasion.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Shoju » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:39 am

I don't know, if they see her using the same types of strategies that Arthas did when he CRUSHED their lands, RAZED their cities, they might SERIOUSLY be put off.

I mean, Look at what she says in Silverpine.

Garrosh: "What is the difference between you and the Lich King!?"
Sylvanas: "Why, I serve the Horde Garrosh."

No difference. She even admits it. Kill that crazy bitch.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Dantriges » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:06 pm

I don´t say that the elves want to put her out of her misery.

I just thnk that the leadership made some emergency/contingency plans for the case that Sylvanas becomes an actual threat and at least consider her a potential threat. probably quite a few nations during the course of history spent some thought on the possibility of their alliance suddenly turning sour. And that happened quite often. Sometimes in the midst of a battle.

And you can spin it like this: After fighting bravely against her affliction for years, one of our greatest heroes finally fell to the madness of the Scourge/undeath. We are obligated to give her a merciful death.

Considering her recent actions, the elves are probably busy planning for the possible day, Garrosh and Sylvanas come to blows or her Bansheeness is a bit more insane in her nonliving brain than originally anticipated.

It´s not like Lor´Themar likes her so much. Perhaps taking a more active role in the Horde is part of the whole thing to be more independant of Sylvanas good will. At least I think the Elves want a bit more political weight in the Horde, just in case and not be regarded as the guy who were allowed to join to please the Banshee Queen.

Just because you are grateful, doesn´t mean you stay until the bitter end. So I don´see the blood elves taking preemptive action but they probably calculate with the posibility that the Forsaken turn hostile.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby halabar » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:44 pm

Dantriges wrote:Just because you are grateful, doesn´t mean you stay until the bitter end. So I don´see the blood elves taking preemptive action but they probably calculate with the posibility that the Forsaken turn hostile.


The smart path is to likely wait until the humans and the forsaken go all-out, and then come in the rear and take care of the potential threat once and for all. I doubt Garrosh would care if the BE lands were expanded, as long as Garrosh got SW and IF.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Passionario » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:46 pm

Dantriges wrote:So I don´see the blood elves taking preemptive action


It's not the love of Sylvanas that keeps them in check, but the fear of her. They remember Garithos's folly all too well, and no Blood Elf commander wants to go down in history as the idiot who botched an assassination attempt against Sylvanas and doomed his entire race as a result.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Dantriges » Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:00 pm

They probably wait for the quarrel between Garrosh and Sylvanas turning hot. No need to start the whole thing without allies and painting a big bullseye on Silvermoon. And well I don´t think they want to. Perhaps they hope that Sylvanas drops the moustache twirling villain play.

The strategy to wait until the Forsaken and Huamans weakened each other could have been the plan in the beginning and would be the wisest course of action until recently. Problem is with the new ability of the Forsaken to replenish their losses it doesn´t work, unless the Forsaken lose more soldiers in the fighting, than they can raise. Somehow I doubt it. If they win a battle they have the corpses the enemy left on the field and the civilian population nearby to recruit unless they plague bomb with their current version. I think it still turns people into goo instead.

So in the end, the Forsaken grow with every battle where they are able to raise people and convert them t their cause. Seems that you still are able to say no after the raise. Perhaps the Alliance could prevent a strengthening of Fosaken numbers by conditioning their troops rigidly to never accept.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sagara » Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:35 am

Dantriges wrote:They probably wait for the quarrel between Garrosh and Sylvanas turning hot. No need to start the whole thing without allies and painting a big bullseye on Silvermoon. And well I don´t think they want to. Perhaps they hope that Sylvanas drops the moustache twirling villain play.

The strategy to wait until the Forsaken and Huamans weakened each other could have been the plan in the beginning and would be the wisest course of action until recently. Problem is with the new ability of the Forsaken to replenish their losses it doesn´t work, unless the Forsaken lose more soldiers in the fighting, than they can raise. Somehow I doubt it. If they win a battle they have the corpses the enemy left on the field and the civilian population nearby to recruit unless they plague bomb with their current version. I think it still turns people into goo instead.

So in the end, the Forsaken grow with every battle where they are able to raise people and convert them t their cause. Seems that you still are able to say no after the raise. Perhaps the Alliance could prevent a strengthening of Fosaken numbers by conditioning their troops rigidly to never accept.


And add to THAT the following: say the Forsaken get backed in a corner with little corpses available. Pop quizz: where can one find available near-corpses that would have a hard time defending themselves because of... lets say surprise?

In short: Sylvanas helped because it was her interest to weaken the Scourge. Sylvanas will keep helping if it serves her interests. She would also kill anyone without batting an eyelash if it served her interests - friend or foe. she's just that ruthless (and avery cool character, even if I want (thinking as my paladin) that plague out of the equation, she has enough of a "anything it takes" approach to be a cool character (thinking as the player) that should stick around.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Dantriges » Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:35 am

At the moment her val´kyr can only raise humans. Had the same idea tha Silvermoon could be a nice recruiting ground but not at the moment.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sagara » Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:32 am

Dantriges wrote:At the moment her val´kyr can only raise humans. Had the same idea tha Silvermoon could be a nice recruiting ground but not at the moment.


Wasn't aware of that - where was that mentionned? And/or where ca I get more background on the Valkyr post-Cataclysm?
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Chicken » Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:27 am

Sagara wrote:
Dantriges wrote:At the moment her val´kyr can only raise humans. Had the same idea tha Silvermoon could be a nice recruiting ground but not at the moment.


Wasn't aware of that - where was that mentionned? And/or where ca I get more background on the Valkyr post-Cataclysm?
Well "only humans" isn't explicitly mentioned as far as I'm aware. The quests in Silverpine do make it pretty clear that the Worgen curse makes you immune to being raised as one of the Forsaken by the Val'kyr though.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby KysenMurrin » Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:30 am

Humans-only is more of a gameplay conceit, since they can't have other races in the Forsaken.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:30 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:Humans-only is more of a gameplay conceit, since they can't have other races in the Forsaken.


As far as I know the Forsaken are supposed to be Humans and Elves... I believe the idea was that once you decay the corpse enough they don't look all that different.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Dantriges » Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:01 pm

It´s mentioned that they are only able to raise humans a the moment but I only found evidence that the worgen curse maks people immune. Well perhaps some thought this would extend to other races. Well should continue the questline.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sagara » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:26 am

Sabindeus wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:Humans-only is more of a gameplay conceit, since they can't have other races in the Forsaken.


As far as I know the Forsaken are supposed to be Humans and Elves... I believe the idea was that once you decay the corpse enough they don't look all that different.


Hmm... So it's maybe, maybe not? Besides, Sylvanas is an elven Forsaken herself - even if she doesn't know how to raise other elves.

Blood elf leaders might not be aware of that specific point - after all, there is proof that elven can be raised, and there is proof that Sylvanas can raise the dead like Arthas before her. So even if the logic is flawed, it's an understandable mistake.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:09 am

Dantriges wrote:It´s mentioned that they are only able to raise humans a the moment but I only found evidence that the worgen curse maks people immune. Well perhaps some thought this would extend to other races. Well should continue the questline.


Yes, I was referring to the original crop of Forsaken that Sylvanas "liberated" from the Lich King's control.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby halabar » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:19 am

Dantriges wrote:So in the end, the Forsaken grow with every battle where they are able to raise people and convert them t their cause. Seems that you still are able to say no after the raise. Perhaps the Alliance could prevent a strengthening of Fosaken numbers by conditioning their troops rigidly to never accept.


Doubtful that would work. Once you are raised, is there really any choice? The threat of torment looms large, and I don't think the starter intro really plays well into the "you've just died on the battlefield by our hands, but join us now!" scenario.

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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:34 am

halabar wrote:
Dantriges wrote:So in the end, the Forsaken grow with every battle where they are able to raise people and convert them t their cause. Seems that you still are able to say no after the raise. Perhaps the Alliance could prevent a strengthening of Fosaken numbers by conditioning their troops rigidly to never accept.


Doubtful that would work. Once you are raised, is there really any choice? The threat of torment looms large, and I don't think the starter intro really plays well into the "you've just died on the battlefield by our hands, but join us now!" scenario.

A decaying brain doesn't think right.


No the problem is the decaying brain thinks TOO right. You get up as a Forsaken and still feel the animal instinct to preserve your own life, despite it being a second life. It takes significant strength of will to say "No" because then you're essentially committing suicide.

Also I believe the corpses for the new Forsaken are basically just dug up Lordaeron citizens.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby halabar » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:58 am

Sabindeus wrote:
halabar wrote:
Dantriges wrote:So in the end, the Forsaken grow with every battle where they are able to raise people and convert them t their cause. Seems that you still are able to say no after the raise. Perhaps the Alliance could prevent a strengthening of Fosaken numbers by conditioning their troops rigidly to never accept.


Doubtful that would work. Once you are raised, is there really any choice? The threat of torment looms large, and I don't think the starter intro really plays well into the "you've just died on the battlefield by our hands, but join us now!" scenario.

A decaying brain doesn't think right.


No the problem is the decaying brain thinks TOO right. You get up as a Forsaken and still feel the animal instinct to preserve your own life, despite it being a second life. It takes significant strength of will to say "No" because then you're essentially committing suicide.

Also I believe the corpses for the new Forsaken are basically just dug up Lordaeron citizens.


So the base instincts are working, but the cognitive processes that would make you scream NO are likely silent. So absent of the moral processes and standards you had while you were living, you're now free to try to share your new "gift" with your former family. "Come here dear, it will only hurt for a little while...".

Also, they should have run out of those bodies long ago.. or at least their state of decay should be such that they are not useful to raise.

Alliance should take up cremation as a standard practice for dealing with the dead. That's one way to stop them from raising the dead.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Shoju » Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:17 am

halabar wrote:Alliance should take up cremation as a standard practice for dealing with the dead. That's one way to stop them from raising the dead.



In the game that I mentioned in this thread prior, that is exactly what happened to stop certain corrupt forces from raising the dead. Burnt until there was nothing but ash. In that setting the "Maho Tsuaki" didn't care how dead / decayed the body was. If it can move, it can fight. If it can fight, it can kill. If it can Kill, we need it. That was the 'unofficial' motto early on.

All things aside though, You could make the argument that there would be no more loyal cause than to live a second life in defense of your homeland (a forsaken from lordaeron)
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby halabar » Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:38 am

Shoju wrote:All things aside though, You could make the argument that there would be no more loyal cause than to live a second life in defense of your homeland (a forsaken from lordaeron)


That's a good point, but they should have run out of bodies a while ago... :-)
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:55 am

Shoju wrote:All things aside though, You could make the argument that there would be no more loyal cause than to live a second life in defense of your homeland (a forsaken from lordaeron)


I'm really not sure I buy that. Would a former Lordaeron human really want to see his land overrun by orcs and trolls, with his former neighbors and family members living as refugees in Stormwind?
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:57 am

halabar wrote:So the base instincts are working, but the cognitive processes that would make you scream NO are likely silent. So absent of the moral processes and standards you had while you were living, you're now free to try to share your new "gift" with your former family. "Come here dear, it will only hurt for a little while...".


I mean if this is TRUE, then that's a perfect explanation of why undeath is so scary and evil. However there is at least one strong counterexample in the Forsaken starting zone.

Also, they should have run out of those bodies long ago.. or at least their state of decay should be such that they are not useful to raise.

They totally have that doctor guy stitching together viable corpses from parts that are still usable.
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