Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby tinalt » Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:18 pm

Digren wrote:But that may not be their consciousness. It's A consciousness, likely one running on bits of the plague spreading throughout the paths formerly occupied by that body's central nervous system. Their consciousness is gone.

I'm not saying that Forsaken aren't sentient. I'm saying that sentient diseases may not be able to ever peacefully coexist with other forms of sentient life on the same planet. It's like having a sentient chlorine-based life form that insists on equal rights, except it happens to kill any members of any oxygen-breathing species it nears.

There are exceptions where individual instances of the disease seem to have created a very strong moral code. Leonid Barthalomew the Forsaken, for example, is a very righteous plague instance. He has memories of Leonid Barthalomew the human, and his plague mind has chosen to interpret the world in similar ways as the body's old mind. And, when he redies, he's very likely earned a spot among the other heroes buried at Light's Hope. But his valor and righteousness don't earn him the right to drink the blood of one child every month, or whatever else he would need to do to propagate the plague as a species when it would mean the death of another sentient at the plague's "hands".


But who is to say that it is not the original person's conciousness? I think it's quite a big leap to say that just because they died and were brought back, that suddenly it's a completely different "person" behind the wheel.

We're talking about a world where resurrection is commonplace, how often has your character died? And although some characters have their will bent to the whims of a new master, I don't think I've seen a single instance of it being a completely new entity outside of straight demon possession.

People always find a way to reduce their enemies, it makes them easier to be killed. It's why you hear things like "they're just animals, they're not human" throughout history. You're doing the same thing here, because it allows you to kill any and all forsaken without feeling any guilt. that wasn't an old friend you just killed, it was the plague inhabiting your dead friends body.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Amirya » Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:31 pm

Dantriges wrote:Well, probably the Silver Hand really has a bit of a problem with the fact that the biggest villain in human history and one of the biggest threats to the Alliance (well Deathwing wasn´t seen on the horizon yet) was a paladin. Probably they feel a bit guilty that they didn´t dicover the potential threat beforehand. The quote was more or less a mission statement by the Order itself.

Well let´s say that you have one of the usual big scandals in politics and people vow/promise that they will take precautions to prevent it in future. You probably don´t think that this way only evil lies. Your thughts are probably more along the line of "Well I hope they keep their promise actually."

Not that I say that it´s a hollow promise. the Order probably felt very uneasy about it. One of their own turned into the antithesis of everything the order holds dear and vowed to prevent it from happening again. I don´t think they believe they have dozens of Mini Arthases in training.

Probably eliminate is a bit of a strog word. Well it depends on how they do it. Perhaps they check now if the guy is mentally stable or if he is close to mindless fanatism, choose to join the paladins, so he will go on a rampage to get his revenge and so on and weed out the potential psychos in basic training.

They probably don´t do it like "This recruit must be purged, chop his head off." Doesn´t mesh very well with the philosophy of the Holy Light.

Well about this smearing all human paladins. It´s a time honored human tradition to hold a nation/group/organisation accountable for the actions of some of their members, even if cooler heads say, well the majority had nothing to do with it. And that the group itself feels guilty about it.

I'm at work, so my reply is short and limited.

The Silver Hand might have produced Arthas, if you want to twist it that way. They also produced Uther and Tirion and Turalyon. Will they work to avoid "Arthas was merely a setback"? No doubt, but tarring all human paladins? Tar the other way.

Also, and this kills me: The Quel'Thelas elves produced Sylvanas, the twisted, amoral, <insert adjective here> Dark Lady of the undead. Now they're on the same side as her? Talk about priorities.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby bldavis » Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:46 pm

if you are saying that the Silver hand is evil b/c of arthas...
does that mean Cenarion circle is evil due to Fandral Staghelm?

are the Dragon aspects evil bad to Deathwing?
are all dwarfs bad due to Moira and her Dark Irons? (ok bad example, yes all DI Dwarfs are bad)

are all gnomes bad due to Thermaplugg?

the lists can continue, but my point is sure there are bad ppl every where...
that doesnt make the entire faction/race bad.

sure Arthas turned into one helluva bad guy, but look at some of the great heroes that have come out of the silver hand as well...
Tirion, Turalyon, Uther, and iirc even the current LK was a Paladin of the Silver Hand Bolvar Fordragon *covers ears to block out Sabin's fanboi squee*

the worst bad guy in history of all mortals may have come from a certain faction, but so did may of the greatest heroes in Azerothian history.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Dantriges » Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:41 pm

Who said tar?

They are an organisation with high moral standards. They probably just said, oh we will have something like this never happen again even if it´s rather unlikely. I never said the Silver hand was evil because of Arthas. They themselves probably just have problems that one of them, they regarded as one of their finest, turned out to be one of the worst villains of the world. The Silver Hand has high moral standards and they probably consider it as a failure on their part and would consider it unacceptable if something similar would happen again. They set their own standards higher than usual and live by a stricter set of morals. So their tolerance for moral failings of other paladins is probably lower. Uther and the other heroes are the norm that oher paladins should strive to emulate. That a paladin, especially one of royal blood, hailed as a future paragon, took such a dark path is probably totally disgusting to them especially that no one in the order realized until it was too late.

Probably most people don´t even think of Arthas as a paladin, they think of him as the spoiled brat prince of Lordaeron or so.

And well the bloodelves have a different set of moral standards and don´t care much about such things. Well both groups play or at least played the "We suffered so terribly" theme, so it is not surprising that they like each other.

And well the forsaken are currently the closest nation to them, at least the one with the strongest military and their population centers close at hand.

It was actually a smart move to ally with the forsaken prior to the inclusion of the val´kyr. If the forsaken spend their resources and manpower fighting the alliance they probably wouldn´t have the military power to attack Quel´Thalas afterwards. Now it´s more unclear with the invention of the new plague and having a means to raise the dead but well the bloodleves didn´t/couldn´t anticipate that.

The elves high or blood were also really fond of others doing the dirty work of making war for them. They gave the humans the tools like arcane magic, etc and now they allied with the horde but AFAIK they actually don´t participate in the fighting. Well with Zul Aman at their doorstep and the troll empire renaissance movement, they have a good excuse.

And if the article on wowpaedia is correct, the alliance was formed during desperate times anyways.

Well the blood elves are a bunch of pragmatists. You could call them amoral and twisted but like the forsaken, they don´t care (much). They probably do everything to make Silvermoon safe, don´t care much about the rest.

Doesn´t excuse their past behaviours but well, at least they don´bomb neutral states into oblivion.
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby halabar » Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:13 pm

tinalt wrote:But who is to say that it is not the original person's conciousness? I think it's quite a big leap to say that just because they died and were brought back, that suddenly it's a completely different "person" behind the wheel.

We're talking about a world where resurrection is commonplace, how often has your character died? And although some characters have their will bent to the whims of a new master, I don't think I've seen a single instance of it being a completely new entity outside of straight demon possession.

People always find a way to reduce their enemies, it makes them easier to be killed. It's why you hear things like "they're just animals, they're not human" throughout history. You're doing the same thing here, because it allows you to kill any and all forsaken without feeling any guilt. that wasn't an old friend you just killed, it was the plague inhabiting your dead friends body.


So, you should blindly accept being corrupted by the plague for the sake of not hurting your old friend's feelings? Yeah, let's let al Qaeda bomb a few cities too, to allow them the pursuit of their goals.

There comes a point that despite whatever another group may claim a right to, and whatever their history was, their actions and goals simply cannot be accepted.
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Dantriges » Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:31 pm

tinalt wrote:We're talking about a world where resurrection is commonplace, how often has your character died? And although some characters have their will bent to the whims of a new master, I don't think I've seen a single instance of it being a completely new entity outside of straight demon possession.


Well for one. Ressurection is a game mechanic mostly. Like being alive when you enter an instance or that bosses respawn every week. Or do you think that´s really part of the world? Ressurection is ignored in lore pretty often.

Uther dead. Why didn´t he make a corpse run? Why hasn´t he been ressed by a surviving paladin? Why haven´t the dead people of Lordaeron been ressurected? I think not every one was a plague victim. Some died the old ashioned way during the war.
Culling of Stratholme. Kill the population before they turn into zombies. A sicknes is a debuff, you lose when you are dead. Should work before they turn. Kill them all, rezz them afterwards. Uther is such a fool, that he berated Arthas for killing the inhabitants, instead of rezzing them.

The whole Bidenbrad story, especially if you are a healing capable class. The guy dies and all you get for your efforts is that he is cleansed of the plague after death. Ressurect him afterwards. He is cleansed. Would work.

Most quests actually don´t make much sense if access to rsurrection is common. We kill a lot of leaders, troops etc. during leveling, in raids etc. Their underlings/fellows could just rezz them. Well they respawn but you don´t encounter many quests where the quest giver say: "Thanks this will take care of the problem for five minutes."

A more recent example would be the attack on Varian Wrynn during the questline with Andiun Wrynn. Yeah Andiun saved his life with a shield. Why is the king so thankful? His son could just have ressurected him afterwards or another priest. Why should you make sure that the prince is not harmed during the questline? Just haul his dead body back, if someting goes wrong.
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Digren » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:52 pm

tinalt wrote:But who is to say that it is not the original person's conciousness? I think it's quite a big leap to say that just because they died and were brought back, that suddenly it's a completely different "person" behind the wheel.

We're talking about a world where resurrection is commonplace, how often has your character died? And although some characters have their will bent to the whims of a new master, I don't think I've seen a single instance of it being a completely new entity outside of straight demon possession.

People always find a way to reduce their enemies, it makes them easier to be killed. It's why you hear things like "they're just animals, they're not human" throughout history. You're doing the same thing here, because it allows you to kill any and all forsaken without feeling any guilt. that wasn't an old friend you just killed, it was the plague inhabiting your dead friends body.


Because if they were the same person, a good percentage of them would decide "you know what? I really want to just go back and tend my garden again, like I did before I was killed." And they would be genuinely horrified by some of the other creatures that associate with the Forsaken, even if they can manage to "live" with their own condition.

And resurrection isn't commonplace. That's been noted before as a game mechanic that doesn't exist in the WoW lore.

As I pointed out, I don't necessarily say we have to kill every Forsaken. Bartholomew is decent and can exist until his bits fall off. For the rest, well, they don't need air, and I don't need an uninhabited moon. The draenei can build them a ship and send them off to one of those to reside upon, one where their plague won't endanger other sentients. If they really were the same people in there, they'd be fine with that because it would let them live out their undeath in peace without harming others, something their original consciousnesses would care about.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Amirya » Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:05 pm

Dantriges wrote:They themselves probably just have problems that one of them, they regarded as one of their finest, turned out to be one of the worst villains of the world.

I don't believe Arthas was ever considered one of the finest. Had the potential to be one of the finest, though. The finest would be Uther, who found it in him to forgive what Arthas became.

Or Turalyon, who gave up his home, his son, his whole world, just to ensure there would be an attempt at peace on the other side.

Or Tirion, who gave up his home, his wife and son, his titles and wealth, and the respect of his peers, because he understood the value of honor.

Or Bolvar, who gave up everything to take up the mantle of what he hated the most. To bring peace to people who don't know the truth about the Scourge.

Arthas was hot tempered, irrational, and arrogant. If he'd been given a few more years to season, he might have been one of the finest. But he didn't have them, and therefore, he wasn't.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Dantriges » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:12 am

Yeah I rather meant could have been one in the future. At least his people saw something in him that way. The WC3 manual said he is a favorite pupil of Uther at that time.
he rest of his description seems to indicate that he wasn´t Uther favorite because he wanted to keep a close eye on him.

Ah well, probably doesn´t matter anyways. He was a member of the paladin order in good standing (wasn´t outcast or something like that) until he killed his father. They somehow feel guilty about that. Perhaps because the Light teaches that each person can strengthen other persons and they failed to do so, because they didn´t see him slowly moving towards villainy, they couldn´t stop him or whatever else. People often feel guilty out of irrational reasons.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sagara » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:02 am

Can't we just sign a non-NBC weaponry treaty? "Anyone caught with the plague on him gets his head relocated to groin level by heavy hammer usage."

Hell, I'm a BE and would LOVE to whack in ANY head whose hands slithers too close to that effin' plague...

And yeah, it has EVERYTHING to do with our capital being the closest one to the Undercity.

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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Dantriges » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:09 am

Well unless the alliance has some mana bombs with a huge explosion radius, the Forsaken probably wouldn´t sign such a treaty. They are the only ones currently who have it in their arsenal and you don´t fear an army of hammer wielders if you can drop a plague bomb on them.

The forsaken don´t benefit from a treaty and well it´s probably hard to threaten them with ordinary military might. Perhaps the forsaken would care if Garrosh would threaten to kick them out but at the moment, well. I think he stationed some orc elite troops within Undercity or so. Don´t know if it actually helps to keep the Forsaken in line.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sagara » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:31 am

Let's not ignore the tongue-in-cheek humor :p

'Nyways, that bothered me too, is that Garrosh is essentially CONDONING the plague. I mean he's got Kor'kron all over the Undercity, with a stern warning against further shenaningans. We are having further shenanigans, and what does Garrosh do? "You're a bad bad girl, Sylvanas, if you keep it up, I'll go tell!". /facepalm. You have your ELITE warriors in there, ready and willing to hack anyone the Warchief commands, so get hackin'!

The worst way I could take it is: "Hey, this plague and resurrection stuff is cool to expland Horde lands, but my guys won't like it if I let it slide. I'll just slap your wrist and call it a day, just keep getting us land, while I keep the Kor'kron to look like I'm all Lok'Thar and plague is bad and stuff, k?" And I DO hope that's not how we're supposed to see it.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Dantriges » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:25 am

Ah well, one of the few reasons Forsaken are still in the horde because the backlash from the player base would be enormous.

Patch Notes 4.7854
The Horde decided to remove the Forsaken from their faction.
Forsaken players will be remoed from horde guilds and expelled from horde controlled cities. They will be transferred to the forsaken controlled territories in Lordaeron.

Wonder what faction if any the alliance would lose. Probably the worgen or the draenei.

You could make a case that Garrosh has his hands full, keeping the Horde together, plague bombing some far away alliance strongholds probably is a minor problem.
Well for our modern tastes, using the plague in such a manner is completely disgusting. For an orc in a medieval setting trying to help his people survive after Deathwing had some fun with the world, plague bombing is probably a minor concern. I don´t know how hard the Cataclysm actuallyhit the Horde but if they are working on preventing little orc kids from starving, they have bigger problems at the moment and postpone dealing with te Forsaken until the rest of the Horde has time for that or until the Blood Elves voiced their concerns about their neighbors and somehow allies loud enough.
The biggest one would be that Sylvanas goes mental and uses it on her allies. So he stationed some guards in Undercity so she couldn´t just bomb them (ah such a hassle that the new plague is also effective against undead people).

I think Sylvanas told Garrosh that she used the lesser version of the blight on South Shore. That was actually ok for the Horde, Garrosh knows that she lied but pretends to believe her.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Passionario » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:53 am

Sagara wrote:Can't we just sign a non-NBC weaponry treaty? "Anyone caught with the plague on him gets his head relocated to groin level by heavy hammer usage."

Hell, I'm a BE and would LOVE to whack in ANY head whose hands slithers too close to that effin' plague...

And yeah, it has EVERYTHING to do with our capital being the closest one to the Undercity.

Remember kids, say no to plague! And emphasize with a heavy THUD from your hammer.


Look at this from RAS perspective:

Every race uses the resources of its homelands for martial purposes. Night Elves and Blood Elves tap into moonwells and leylines to fuel their magic, Dwarves build mighty war machines from the metals extracted from mountain ranges, Humans raise herds of purebred stallions for their armored knights, Trolls make blood pacts with the loa of the land... and Forsaken simply do what anyone would do, if every plant and beast in his or her homeland was brimming with lethal poisons.

So if you want to ban the plague, let's ban all race-specific methods of warfare as well. No tanks, no geomancy, no voodoo, no cavalry, no magic crystals - just an all-out brawl with nothing but basic infantry. Wouldn't that be fun?

Alternatively, anyone wishing to stop the Forsaken from spreading the plague can just swap homelands with them. :D

Sabindeus wrote:Raising the dead is in itself an evil act. The dead are sacrosanct. You can't just pop them out of the ground to have more soldiers for your conscripted army. That's absurd. And evil.


It is debatable whether the sanctity of the dead is a universal constant, or merely a religious/cultural/tribal taboo. However, even if we, for the sake of argument, assume that raising the dead is, indeed, an evil act, does that automatically condemn all those who were created via said act, along with those who performed it? In particular, all those Forsaken who were awakened prior to Cataclysm?

To use a crude metaphor: Rape is an evil act. One's sexual privacy is sacrosanct. Yet if it results in a childbirth, would it be moral and virtuous (and in fact, pretty much mandatory) for a paladin of the Light to kill said child in cold blood?

Sabindeus wrote:I'm a Paladin. I define morality.


I'm a Shadow Priest. I reject your morality and substitute my own. :twisted:

Kelaan wrote:It'll never happen. I mean, even if they WANTED to, the rest of the world sees them as abominations. If orcs and humans can't find a reason to get along, then no way in HELL will humans and UNDEAD do so.


If it worked for DKs, it can work for the Forsaken.

Common people: Undead abomination! My family died because of the Scourge! Get a rope, we're going to have ourselves an execution! /spit /spit /banana_peel
Faction leader: OUR DECEASED HEROES HAVE RETURNED TO US TO FIGHT AT OUR SIDE ONCE AGAIN. YOU WILL TREAT THEM WITH UTMOST RESPECT BECAUSE I SAID SO.
Common people: Uh, sure thing, boss. /bow

They just need to convince those in charge, and the rest of the world will follow suit.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sagara » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:26 am

Passionario wrote:If it worked for DKs, it can work for the Forsaken.

Common people: Undead abomination! My family died because of the Scourge! Get a rope, we're going to have ourselves an execution! /spit /spit /banana_peel
Faction leader: OUR DECEASED HEROES HAVE RETURNED TO US TO FIGHT AT OUR SIDE ONCE AGAIN. YOU WILL TREAT THEM WITH UTMOST RESPECT BECAUSE I SAID SO.
Common people: Uh, sure thing, boss. /bow

They just need to convince those in charge, and the rest of the world will follow suit.


In other words, they just need some good PR. A bit like BP "Look, we're sorry for all those plague leaks left and right, but we've got TOP-NOTCH Goblin Sappers working on the problem. Top. Notch. And as a gesture of goodwill, we will be offering free samples of our delicisous Plague n°5. With just one whiff, you'll be melting her nose away! Literally!

Or maybe we should just stockpile pink ribbons and fluffy hearts everywhere in Undercity? Would give the place a softer touch, right?
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Dantriges » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:49 am

Sylvanas could start a tour as a singer, giving concerts all over the world.

The DKs have the advantage that a large part of them integrated into Horde and Alliance and not as a coherent unit. Even the NPCs like Koltira and Thassarian. So they don´t show up as a separate faction/nation. The only time we had a faction of deathknights was during Wrath of the Lichking and well they fought against the Lichking and didn´t have another separate goal like establishing a country where the Deathknights are the new nobility.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Passionario » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:25 am

Sagara wrote:Or maybe we should just stockpile pink ribbons and fluffy hearts everywhere in Undercity? Would give the place a softer touch, right?


Better yet, replace the basic zombie-like Forsaken models with attractive smooth-skinned gothic vampires. 8)
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sagara » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:53 am

Passionario wrote:
Sagara wrote:Or maybe we should just stockpile pink ribbons and fluffy hearts everywhere in Undercity? Would give the place a softer touch, right?


Better yet, replace the basic zombie-like Forsaken models with attractive smooth-skinned gothic vampires. 8)


With sparkles?
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Shoju » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:32 am

Passionario wrote:
Sagara wrote:Or maybe we should just stockpile pink ribbons and fluffy hearts everywhere in Undercity? Would give the place a softer touch, right?


Better yet, replace the basic zombie-like Forsaken models with attractive smooth-skinned gothic vampires. 8)



I'm not going to lie. One of the things I hate about non clothy (and even to an extent clothy) Forsaken is that they always look like shit. I actually began hating my first main, an undead rogue, when i got the Epic pants from Hungerfen on him in TBC (my first epic ever). I spent tons of gold getting the mats and best gems for them, put them on, and BLAM! I still looked like I was wearing some shredded thing I was wearing when i crawled out of the ground.

Aesthetics aren't everything to everyone, but to me, if I don't look good, I'm probably not going to wear it for very long. TBC rainbow color crap, and Forsaken pants'd characters included.

Robes look.... 'ok' on forsaken, but why does my spine poke through the cloak I just bought from the vendor for vanquishing the bad guys?! It's.... NEW!
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Amirya » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:44 am

Dantriges wrote:Wonder what faction if any the alliance would lose. Probably the worgen or the draenei.

I think we'd gladly give up the gnomes.

Although, if the new faction was gnome/undead, that'd be...

Ok, I'd laugh.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby bldavis » Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:09 am

gnomish undead....
they crave brains, but will settle for ankles!
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby halabar » Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:37 am

just wait until the plague is engineered to work on Orcs..
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:10 am

Passionario wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:Raising the dead is in itself an evil act. The dead are sacrosanct. You can't just pop them out of the ground to have more soldiers for your conscripted army. That's absurd. And evil.


It is debatable whether the sanctity of the dead is a universal constant, or merely a religious/cultural/tribal taboo.

Nope, it's evil.

However, even if we, for the sake of argument, assume that raising the dead is, indeed, an evil act, does that automatically condemn all those who were created via said act, along with those who performed it?
Yes
In particular, all those Forsaken who were awakened prior to Cataclysm?
Especially them!
To use a crude metaphor: Rape is an evil act. One's sexual privacy is sacrosanct. Yet if it results in a childbirth, would it be moral and virtuous (and in fact, pretty much mandatory) for a paladin of the Light to kill said child in cold blood?
You're right, this metaphor is terrible.

Sabindeus wrote:I'm a Paladin. I define morality.


I'm a Shadow Priest. I reject your morality and substitute my own. :twisted:


This only leads to me rejecting your face and substituting my hammer.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby fafhrd » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:53 am

Sabindeus wrote:
To use a crude metaphor: Rape is an evil act. One's sexual privacy is sacrosanct. Yet if it results in a childbirth, would it be moral and virtuous (and in fact, pretty much mandatory) for a paladin of the Light to kill said child in cold blood?
You're right, this metaphor is terrible.


Relevant: Ulric the Just

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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby benebarba » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:32 am

fafhrd wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:
To use a crude metaphor: Rape is an evil act. One's sexual privacy is sacrosanct. Yet if it results in a childbirth, would it be moral and virtuous (and in fact, pretty much mandatory) for a paladin of the Light to kill said child in cold blood?


In short - would the paladin follow their moral code if it resulted in bloodshed of who others consider 'good' or 'neutral'? Yes, probably. Because otherwise they'd be violating the very laws which define them and whose enforcement they were 'chosen' by their deity. Don't follow that same deity? Sorry. You're either on your own or a heretic depending on the order and will be treated as such.

Paladins aren't always nice people.


edited to add: I know WOW is different with regards to alignments (though the wowpedia article on paladin code of conduct reads like an old D&D description with 'the light' put in where 'their deity' would be), but In D&D this was one aspect that could make paladins interesting. They were not necessarily revered wherever they went, and indeed some trembled at their passing because they were on the wrong end of that moral code. It's only when you interpret 'lawful good' as 'everyone thinks they fart rainbows, and they rescue kittens on their days off' that they can become boring RP-wise.
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