Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:45 am

melisandyr wrote:But you might say that if it's essential to their survival as a culture, from an amoral point of view, it is merely a product of the Forsaken's drive to survive.
That's illogical. Cultures are not living beings, there are no inherent moral rights at a cultural level.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby halabar » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:50 am

melisandyr wrote:By calling it evil you're imposing your will on the Forsaken people, and your moral code. Why is your moral code any better than Sylvanas' amoral one?

Your point about the dead being sacrosanct is an interesting one. I wonder whether it is possible to say from a religious point of view that raising the dead is only a violation of religious laws if the newly raised was worthy of salvation. Sure a second chance at life on Azeroth is preferable to enduring an eternity of damnation, at the hands of say, the Eredar?


Ahh... the political correctness fallacy, where there are no absolutes, and everyone is correct, especially if it's an "oppressed miniority". What you are trying to say is that the Human (and Alliance) moral code is forfeit because the Forsaken have to right to their own moral code. Let's turn this around. What gives the Forsaken the right to violate what the Alliance holds as "sacrosanct"? Talk about imposing your own morals. Raise up your own dead.. oops.

Your second point also fails since neither you nor I, and certainly not the Forsaken know that status of the individuals that are being brought back. Who knows who is who, and where their soul/consciousness/whatever was resting? The Forsaken are digging up corpses and not giving them a choice about it.
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Digren » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:51 am

Kelaan wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:But it's not the same because the Forsaken were *people* before getting reanimated. They lost any claim to that status when they died and became corpses.... no longer qualifies as a person.

I disagree -- I think that just as resurrecting a person via the Light makes them still a person, if the consciousness remains it's still a "person" -- b'omarr monks or scourge or construct.


I don't think the consciousness is still there. Some of the memories may be, sure, but that's it. Being a sentient ("human" in multi-species terms) isn't just a collection of memories - it's how those memories and new inputs are processed, filtered, and responded to by the brain's other regions. Your argument is like saying that it's still the same computer when you plug your old hard drive into a new machine running a new operating system on new hardware. Sure, you can access the old contents, but so could I or any other third party that dug up your old drive and plugged it into a machine running plagueOS.*

* I have no reason to believe that the cognitive power of the undead is running on their old brain systems. More likely it's running on new systems grown by the plague virus.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby halabar » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:53 am

Fridmarr wrote:
melisandyr wrote:But you might say that if it's essential to their survival as a culture, from an amoral point of view, it is merely a product of the Forsaken's drive to survive.
That's illogical. Cultures are not living beings, there are no inherent moral rights at a cultural level.


Well, a culture could have a collective will, and their own moral values.

However, that doesn't mean that everyone else can't view it as inherently evil, and do whatever they can to wipe it out.
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby halabar » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:59 am

[quote="Digren"]I don't think the consciousness is still there. Some of the memories may be, sure, but that's it. Being a sentient ("human" in multi-species terms) isn't just a collection of memories ...[quote]

That does raise the issue of what exactly are the Forsaken? Who's at the switch? Where are their cognitive processes coming from?

But really doesn't matter, since the larger crime is the spreading of the plague/blight. The events of Gilneas go beyond mere expansionism into genocide and worse.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:02 pm

halabar wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
melisandyr wrote:But you might say that if it's essential to their survival as a culture, from an amoral point of view, it is merely a product of the Forsaken's drive to survive.
That's illogical. Cultures are not living beings, there are no inherent moral rights at a cultural level.


Well, a culture could have a collective will, and their own moral values.

However, that doesn't mean that everyone else can't view it as inherently evil, and do whatever they can to wipe it out.

A group will or group's moral values, doesn't provide collective rights for that group. If an individual Forsaken was going to die without raising a body then at least there's some dilemma where you have to contrast individual rights. Even then though, you'd typically fall on the side of the body. For example, currently you can't harvest organs from someone recently deceased, who hasn't said they are willing to donate their organs, without consent of a representative even if those organs would save a life. When you want to compare a culture to an individual, there's nothing the compare, the culture has no standing.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby halabar » Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:07 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
halabar wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:That's illogical. Cultures are not living beings, there are no inherent moral rights at a cultural level.


Well, a culture could have a collective will, and their own moral values.

However, that doesn't mean that everyone else can't view it as inherently evil, and do whatever they can to wipe it out.

A group will or group's moral values, doesn't provide collective rights for that group. If an individual Forsaken was going to die without raising a body then at least there's some dilemma where you have to contrast individual rights. Even then though, you'd typically fall on the side of the body. When you want to compare a culture to an individual, there's nothing the compare, the culture has no standing.


Interesting. That would not fly too far with today's political correctness. (Not that I don't disagree with you, but just saying.. :-)

But what of when a culture doesn't respect, or acknowledge individual rights? That's likely where the Forsaken truly are.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:12 pm

Well not respecting individual rights is what gets them, (and other various cultures throughout history) branded as evil. I'm not a WoW lore person, so I have no clue if that fits the Forsaken or not.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby halabar » Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:19 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Well not respecting individual rights is what gets them, (and other various cultures throughout history) branded as evil. I'm not a WoW lore person, so I have no clue if that fits the Forsaken or not.


Well, I doubt that Garrosh gives a flaming boar about individual rights. (Same can probably be said for most of the leaders on both sides). Individual rights tend to go away in times of war (that whole martial law thing...)
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:28 pm

Obviously such things can be and have been abused. In western cultures Martial Law isn't, in theory, used as a tool to trounce on individual rights, but to maintain order so that individual rights can be upheld.
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Kelaan » Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:23 pm

Sabindeus wrote:I'm a Paladin. I define morality.

I'm not sure how much of that is RP, or your belief, but I don't believe that paladins define morality. Arthas tried that, and didn't do so well. Perhaps that's just my thought, though, as I've also had a problem with the Light Side / Dark Side delineation in Star Wars too (in that I consider intent more important than action in many cases -- though of course I don't condone Arthas' actions e.g. burning Stratholme). I think we interpret, and try to live within a moral code, but I'm not sure we define it.

Sabindeus wrote:I'm pretty sure that in the Warcraft cosmology souls do not go to "hell" or wherever after death. I don't remember anything like that in any of the fiction or games.


I just finished a Blasted Lands quest (You are Raklikh, Demon) where a demon hunter has you banish him + the demon, and he says "I'll battle him in the realms beyond" or something like that. That implied to me that there IS something else, even if it's not something they normally talk about.

Digren wrote:
Kelaan wrote:if the consciousness remains it's still a "person" -- b'omarr monks or scourge or construct.


I don't think the consciousness is still there. Some of the memories may be, sure, but that's it. Being a sentient ("human" in multi-species terms) isn't just a collection of memories - it's how those memories and new inputs are processed, filtered, and responded to by the brain's other regions.


There is consciousness. Sylvanas, Death Knights, and other ex-Scourge retain memories of their past life, and are capable of self-directed action and reasoning. Their view on what's acceptible (morals-wise) is warped, but they're still conscious. Heck, many Scourge were still conscious, even if they did not retain free will -- as evidenced by the Road to Damnation storyline when Kel Thuzad is talking to Anub'Arak. It was clear that he was an unwilling puppet of Ner'zhul. He hated him, but couldn't stop it.

I think it's pretty clear that some Scourge, and by extension the Forsaken faction, are conscious actors. They think, they have emotions, they love and hate, and they are concerned for their own wellbeing. (With the exception being those who are enslaved by the Lich King, who are in varying degrees of puppetry and therefore have their self-preservation subjugated under the will of the LK.) That means they're sentient (even when enslaved).

It may or may not be the same consciousness, but it seems like a pretty fine line to say that the memories+thoughts in a person no longer count as that person once they've crossed the threshold of death, unless you define a person as someone who has (by definition) not died yet. Given that the revived members of the Forsaken are sentient, it seems appropriate (to me) to consider them People.
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:34 pm

Kelaan wrote:I just finished a Blasted Lands quest (You are Raklikh, Demon) where a demon hunter has you banish him + the demon, and he says "I'll battle him in the realms beyond" or something like that. That implied to me that there IS something else, even if it's not something they normally talk about.


1. There are many many references dating back to Warcraft 1 to "Hell" or later "The Twisting Nether" as the place where demons live and come from.
2. You didn't kill them you banished them.
3. I didn't say there weren't planes of existence beyond Azeroth, clearly there are (see Draenor). However never have they said that a dead person's soul goes to another plane of existence when he dies. There's plenty of reference to being cared for by The Light, but that's it.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby sahiel » Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:47 pm

Sabindeus wrote:I'm a Paladin. I define morality.

And a human one at that, nothing more than another Arthas waiting to happen.

Putting you down before you become the crazed dog you're destined to be is the only sensible choice.

:P
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby halabar » Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:53 pm

sahiel wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:I'm a Paladin. I define morality.

And a human one at that, nothing more than another Arthas waiting to happen.

Putting you down before you become the crazed dog you're destined to be is the only sensible choice.

:P


Yet another horde sympathizer repressin' the man...
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:08 pm

Kelaan wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:I'm a Paladin. I define morality.

I'm not sure how much of that is RP, or your belief, but I don't believe that paladins define morality. Arthas tried that, and didn't do so well.


Yeah because he disagreed with Uther. Uther was a Paladin first, and therefore is more correct than any younger Paladins.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:09 pm

sahiel wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:I'm a Paladin. I define morality.

And a human one at that, nothing more than another Arthas waiting to happen.

Putting you down before you become the crazed dog you're destined to be is the only sensible choice.

:P

Because clearly, all human paladins, nay, all humans are just Arthases waiting to happen. People find cursed runeblades like, 10x a day, they trip over them in their backyards, etc.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby halabar » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:14 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
sahiel wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:I'm a Paladin. I define morality.

And a human one at that, nothing more than another Arthas waiting to happen.

Putting you down before you become the crazed dog you're destined to be is the only sensible choice.

:P

Because clearly, all human paladins, nay, all humans are just Arthases waiting to happen. People find cursed runeblades like, 10x a day, they trip over them in their backyards, etc.


Naah.. they're down to about 5k on the AH now..
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Dantriges » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:21 pm

Have fun with this quote: "Many paladins felt responsibility for Arthas, because the Holy Light teaches that every person can strengthen other people. Since they were unable to strengthen Arthas, the entire world suffered. After such an enormous breach of trust, the paladins resolved anew to eliminate all traces of corruption in their ranks."

Also paladins follow the teaching of the holy Light, so it´s questionable if you can just definen your own morality. Perhaps but in a certain framework.

It seems that Arthas was pretty ripe for the fall even if the runeblade finally tipped him over. Or well , he probably had already fallen, the runeblade just gave him a new liege and powers, more to his liking. He defied orders, from his order´s master and his king, deceived his own troops and well the Culling of Stratholme, even if you could argue that there was no other way, he was too eager to kill everyone.

And the questline of the demonhunter. Well demons live in the twisting Nether/Astral Plane. The hunter probably meant the Nether with beyond. Even if not, it´s not like a random NPC is actually right about the afterlife.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby sahiel » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:27 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
sahiel wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:I'm a Paladin. I define morality.

And a human one at that, nothing more than another Arthas waiting to happen.

Putting you down before you become the crazed dog you're destined to be is the only sensible choice.

:P

Because clearly, all human paladins, nay, all humans are just Arthases waiting to happen. People find cursed runeblades like, 10x a day, they trip over them in their backyards, etc.

If you think the runeblade is what corrupted him, you missed 90% of his story, that was the final stage on a long, long road he traveled down willingly, step by step.

That said, if you would like all humans wiped out, we can work with that too :D
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:43 pm

sahiel wrote:If you think the runeblade is what corrupted him, you missed 90% of his story, that was the final stage on a long, long road he traveled down willingly, step by step.

That said, if you would like all humans wiped out, we can work with that too :D


The runeblade IS what corrupted him. Before that he was just a colossal prick and a traitor, doing what he thought was necessary to protect everyone, but falling prey to the classic Evil "the ends justify the means" strategy. He could have been easily dispatched by his father on his return from Northrend.
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Digren » Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:46 pm

Kelaan wrote:
Digren wrote:
Kelaan wrote:if the consciousness remains it's still a "person" -- b'omarr monks or scourge or construct.


I don't think the consciousness is still there. Some of the memories may be, sure, but that's it. Being a sentient ("human" in multi-species terms) isn't just a collection of memories - it's how those memories and new inputs are processed, filtered, and responded to by the brain's other regions.


There is consciousness. Sylvanas, Death Knights, and other ex-Scourge retain memories of their past life, and are capable of self-directed action and reasoning.

But that may not be their consciousness. It's A consciousness, likely one running on bits of the plague spreading throughout the paths formerly occupied by that body's central nervous system. Their consciousness is gone.

I'm not saying that Forsaken aren't sentient. I'm saying that sentient diseases may not be able to ever peacefully coexist with other forms of sentient life on the same planet. It's like having a sentient chlorine-based life form that insists on equal rights, except it happens to kill any members of any oxygen-breathing species it nears.

There are exceptions where individual instances of the disease seem to have created a very strong moral code. Leonid Barthalomew the Forsaken, for example, is a very righteous plague instance. He has memories of Leonid Barthalomew the human, and his plague mind has chosen to interpret the world in similar ways as the body's old mind. And, when he redies, he's very likely earned a spot among the other heroes buried at Light's Hope. But his valor and righteousness don't earn him the right to drink the blood of one child every month, or whatever else he would need to do to propagate the plague as a species when it would mean the death of another sentient at the plague's "hands".
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Amirya » Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:19 pm

Dantriges wrote:"Many paladins felt responsibility for Arthas, because the Holy Light teaches that every person can strengthen other people. Since they were unable to strengthen Arthas, the entire world suffered. After such an enormous breach of trust, the paladins resolved anew to eliminate all traces of corruption in their ranks."

Sounds perilously close to the mission statement of the Scarlet Crusade.

Why is it that all human paladins are being smeared like this? Why is Arthas the rule, not the exception?

Arthas was an aberration. He was eliminated. I doubt all the young new recruits were all, "GOLLY, I want to be just like Arthas!"

Nay, they preferred to be like Tirion.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby bldavis » Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:38 pm

Amirya wrote:
Dantriges wrote:"Many paladins felt responsibility for Arthas, because the Holy Light teaches that every person can strengthen other people. Since they were unable to strengthen Arthas, the entire world suffered. After such an enormous breach of trust, the paladins resolved anew to eliminate all traces of corruption in their ranks."

Sounds perilously close to the mission statement of the Scarlet Crusade.
this is what i thought too when i read that

Amirya wrote:Why is it that all human paladins are being smeared like this? Why is Arthas the rule, not the exception?

Arthas was an aberration. He was eliminated. I doubt all the young new recruits were all, "GOLLY, I want to be just like Arthas!"

Nay, they preferred to be like Tirion.


Arthas was a human paladin, but he is not EVERY human paladin.
If you read the book "Rise of the Lich King (i think...i cant find mine right now) Arthas always bucked under correction and guidance from others. He was headstrong and stubborn from the beginning. Even with Uther, Arthas listened, but didnt always do as he was told/asked

and as far as saying Frostmourne corrupted him? Really?
Frostmourne just finished the job. He was tempted and coaxed to NR by NherZul (i know that is spelled wrong) long before he even laid eyes on Frostmourne. and it was a concious chouice to lay down his light-blessed hammer (i cant remember what it was called) that was given to him by Uther himself and pick up the runeblade.

Frostmourne corrupted Arthas? no, it merely finished the job.


As for the demonhunter chain, i think he meant he will be fighting him in the nether, where the demons physical body is.
the way i have read it is that demons in the material realm here on azeroth are akin to druids in the emerald dream. they are there in thier mind, but not in physical bodies. if you kill a druid in the ED, it merely goes back to its body and "wakes up"
same thing with a demon, if we kill it on Azeroth, it goes back to the Nether and into its body there.
we will have to travel to the nether in order to actually "kill" a demon, unless they are fully summoned into azeroth
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby sahiel » Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:55 pm

bldavis wrote:and as far as saying Frostmourne corrupted him? Really?
Frostmourne just finished the job. He was tempted and coaxed to NR by NherZul (i know that is spelled wrong) long before he even laid eyes on Frostmourne. and it was a concious chouice to lay down his light-blessed hammer (i cant remember what it was called) that was given to him by Uther himself and pick up the runeblade.

Frostmourne corrupted Arthas? no, it merely finished the job.

Exactly, if he wasn't already both as spiritually and morally corrupt as a third world despot he would never even have picked Frostmourne up to start with. Accepting the blade was the final step on his path to corruption, virtually every choice, every decision he made leading up to that point took him further and further down the slippery slope. The lesser of two evils, is still evil, and Arthas made that choice again and again.

That said, the man had charisma in spades, his men followed him to Northrend willingly, they did everything he asked of them, only at the very end when he betrayed them did they lose their faith in him. It's not a stretch to presume that such a striking, charismatic figure would be looked up to by the younger paladins in training, whilst their elders with a world of experience in them looked on troubled. I don't doubt there would certainly have been paladins who even after his fall still looked up to who he had been before and might say "I won't make the mistakes he made."
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Dantriges » Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:11 pm

Well, probably the Silver Hand really has a bit of a problem with the fact that the biggest villain in human history and one of the biggest threats to the Alliance (well Deathwing wasn´t seen on the horizon yet) was a paladin. Probably they feel a bit guilty that they didn´t dicover the potential threat beforehand. The quote was more or less a mission statement by the Order itself.

Well let´s say that you have one of the usual big scandals in politics and people vow/promise that they will take precautions to prevent it in future. You probably don´t think that this way only evil lies. Your thughts are probably more along the line of "Well I hope they keep their promise actually."

Not that I say that it´s a hollow promise. the Order probably felt very uneasy about it. One of their own turned into the antithesis of everything the order holds dear and vowed to prevent it from happening again. I don´t think they believe they have dozens of Mini Arthases in training.

Probably eliminate is a bit of a strog word. Well it depends on how they do it. Perhaps they check now if the guy is mentally stable or if he is close to mindless fanatism, choose to join the paladins, so he will go on a rampage to get his revenge and so on and weed out the potential psychos in basic training.

They probably don´t do it like "This recruit must be purged, chop his head off." Doesn´t mesh very well with the philosophy of the Holy Light.

Well about this smearing all human paladins. It´s a time honored human tradition to hold a nation/group/organisation accountable for the actions of some of their members, even if cooler heads say, well the majority had nothing to do with it. And that the group itself feels guilty about it.
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