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Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby fafhrd » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:56 pm

I would like to clarify that my disgust for [male] gnomes (and all moonkin) has no particularly complex justification, and is purely irrational hatred and a desire to see them fail in all the endeavors of their lives. Thank you [edit: unless you are gnome scum].

Taurens though, taurens are awesome.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby sahiel » Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:03 pm

Sabindeus wrote:What I mean is this: Forsaken are human/elf corpses afflicted with the Undead Blight that makes them get up, walk around, and regurgitate information/behavior from when their brains were still functional. They are also apparently capable of perceiving the world around them and retaining information. They appear to retain their personal identity to some extent, inasmuch as if you ask one its name or history, it will tell you whatever it remembers from before it died, etc., and things of that sort. But beyond that, they're changed. They no longer possess the fundamental qualities that made them human/elves before. The resurrection process corrupts them and changes them into something else. Something evil and otherworldly. Would Sylvanas Windrunner, Ranger-Captain of Quel'Thalas invent a plague to kill everyone who stands in her way? Absolutely not. Sylvanas Windrunner was a paragon of duty and a champion of the High Elves. She would never do anything of the sort. And the horrible acts the other Forsaken carry out in the name of the Dark Lady are also thoroughly not the actions of the men/women they were before the horrific necromancy afflicted them. Those so-called "people" of the Forsaken are in fact no longer qualified to be called "people". They are unholy perversions that must be cleansed, to preserve the memory of the fallen.

Both the physical changes bought on by death, the traumatic experience of death itself, of your life ending can't truly be understood by anyone who hasn't experienced it (and ressurection doesn't count, if it worked in the WoW 'world' as it does in game no-one would ever die of anything bar old age). What changes such things cause to a person, in many cases a person abandoned or betrayed by those they trusted or fought for, shouldn't be underestimated.

The Sylvannas Windrunner before Arthas captured her was all you say, but after he tortured, mutilated and finally killed her he used the powers of the Scourge to corrupt her soul, that is why she is how she is today. Had she died and been raised without suffering such things you'd find a very different leader of the Forsaken, perhaps one who would even have wanted to work with the Alliance, but that will never be.

[rhetoric]The Forsaken were abandoned by the Alliance, left to die at the Scourges hand, they returned and when finally free sought vengeance against the ones who had murdered them yet still were spat upon, killed, called 'monsters' by the Alliance, by the very people they had once lived alongside, is it any wonder they finally turned their back upon those they people. No, the true monsters are the ones who having once spurned the humans of Lordaeron decided anything that reminded them of the betrayal must be removed, the Forsaken had to die to expunge the memory of shame their existence bought about.[/rhetoric]
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby melisandyr » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:50 pm

I think the Forsaken's current behaviour is one of the most interesting things about the warcraft world. I think if Blizzard are setting Sylvanas up to be killed in this expansion I'd be sorely disappointed.

My personal opinion is that the Forsaken find themselves existing and conscious in a world that they don't have any place in, and that they are acting in the dark and desperate manner merely to survive and retain their right to existence and consciousness.

Sylvanas is this principle writ large, combined with all the fury and vengeance of someone whose nemesis has been destroyed. This is what Maiev would be like were she still in the foreground of the story; strong, charismatic and driven, but with her purpose removed with the death of Arthas. Instead, she's focussing not only on her people's right to survive, but ensuring their ability to thrive - and using any means on hand to do so. The Forsaken society does seem rather autocratic (not entirely inexplicable, given the actions of Putress and Varimathas - there is only one will now, and it's the Dark Lady's) - and anyone deviating from Sylvanas' purpose can expect their life to be forfeit.

Sylvanas is taking desperate, horrific action, but it seems to me that this is done through the desire to allow her people to prosper. It's dark stuff, and certainly not the heroic action of a former High Elf Ranger, but it isn't pure evil either. Genocide is never a pleasant, but let's not pretend that the basic "human" drive for the strong to survive at the expense of the weak isn't what's behind it (c.f. Spanish in Central America, white settlers and native peoples in North America, British in India, British and Dutch in South Africa - it's not just Bosnia/Jewish persecution/Iraqi kurds black & white moralism - I don't want to tar this discussion with too much relation to historical precedent, as I do believe that all such acts were horrific violations of people, cultural and individuals. But I'm not naive enough to think that such actions are purely the realm of evil men either - morally good beings often perform atrocities to bring about an outcome they perceive (key emphasis on their perception here, I'm not endorsing any of the above) to be benevolent or just). And it's precisely because it feels uncomfortable that it adds an interesting depth to the game. That's a personal reaction though. And more than a small part of me does want to rail against the Hollywood moralism that seems rampant on mmo champion whenever a Sylvanas discussion comes up.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby halabar » Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:25 pm

But it is those horrific actions of Sylvanas that fly in the face of any attempt at acceptance by others. She forcibly converts others to be one of her "kind", and that is the ultimate evil here.

Comparions to the curse of the flesh don't hold up that is best viewed as evolution, since the resultant race was able to reproduce, despite it not being part of the "plan".

Ironically, it is the worgen that bear the closest analogy to the Forsaken. Since it's unclear if they can reproduce their kind biologically, they may or may not face the same issue as the Forsaken, and since they were driven from their home by them, the comparison becomes even more interesting. What will the worgen leadership do when faced with "extinction"?
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Dantriges » Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:50 am

It´s unclear that they can reproduce biologically? Never heard of that.

Well Forsaken. They are different from the rest because well they are actually dead.

And it´s probably a bit hard on diplomatic relations if every member of your nations was part of the Zombie Apocalypse.

Fine, thy broke free and perhaps diplomatic relations would slowly become better if the Forsaken would actually stop behaving in a moustache twirling villain manner. Allying with former Scourge members whose actual intentions are probably a bit unclear. I mean the Valányr went to their undeath willingly and were until recently part of the Scourge. Someone tought about that they are perhaps still upholding the beliefs of the former Lichkings.

The forsaken hold former parts of Alliance lands. They were probaby people from this nation but well, I heard that death normally terminates your property rights. I assume that at least some people from Lordaeron were able to flee and the forsaken don´t care about their rights at all. Compensation or at least offering them part of the lans or live there. If you die you can join the undead ranks for example. Would perhaps be another solution for their reproduction problems. I heard that quite a lot of people are afraid of death. There are probably quite a few from every living race who would take this offer. Would better than to plant humans in the earth. Well actually why keep on reproducing? I thought they were bent on revenge on Arthas/Lichking because he inflicted them with this condition and mind control and it´s oh so horrible. Do the proper thing and die already, bunch of walking corpse. Thought you hated your existence.

The forsaken currently behave like a Mini Scourge, Horde and Alliance didn´t recognize the Scourge as anything else than an enemy especially when the Scourge started to utilize the plague again. The forsaken do more or less the same, deploying plague bombs even when under orders not to, from their recognized supreme military leader or at least the leader of the guys they allied with. If it was feasible without punishing forsaken players, the storyline should incorporate the kicking out of the Scourge. The invasion of Gilneas was not neccessary. These people put up a giant wall, so they wouldn´t be bothered by the outside world.

It seems to me that the dumb brick of a human king was actually right about the Forsaken and Sylvanas. She just used Putress as a convenient scape goat.

At the moment the forsaken and their leadership behave like raving animals that are out of control, listening to no one. Their ultimate goal is probably something like conquer as much as you can, put the livin somewhere and use them as breeding stock to replenish manpower when needed. Take the world, done. Hail the Lichqueen.

They are a threat to every living being and well you don´t argue morals with dead guys who are ultimately out to kill you and offer you the gift of what "suffer eternally?" At least it was portrayed as a curse or something else and the Forsaken wanted to get revenge for it n the Lichking.

And well I don´t think Azeroth has nations with high morals to begin with, considering that its full of bloodthirsty maniacs (no I don´t mean the players). Every race suffered terribly from theScourge. I think that Blizzard stated somewhere that 80% of the population of every race was killed. Considering the losses in the Burning crusade (remembering the guys emerging from the portals near the Dark Portal, battling huge demons), the loss of life during the second plague, the war against the LK, the cataclysm and some side skirmishes with Old Gods and dragons, every faction should be beneath the capability in resources and manpower to be able to do war. but well, it´s the World of Warcraft and it wouldn´t be so funny for pvp if the actual interaction in Warsong gulch would be trade cattle and grain for wood. And well the elves extract wood via wisps, so no increase in cutting down beloved forest doesn´t count and actually trading wood would keep these pesky greenskins out.
But well seems that the mentality of everyone on this world is, have a problem, grab your weapon, kill some funny looking guy and loot his corpse. Oh and scream For the horde/alliance.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Dantriges » Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:47 am

sahiel wrote:Both the physical changes bought on by death, the traumatic experience of death itself, of your life ending can't truly be understood by anyone who hasn't experienced it. What changes such things cause to a person, in many cases a person abandoned or betrayed by those they trusted or fought for, shouldn't be underestimated.


World of psychology? In a world filled with monsters and other horrible beings, bent on world domination, world destruction, murder, regarding you as a tasty snack, people probably don´t waste too much time pondering the traumatic experience of being raised as an undead and the current mental state of a forsaken. Most of the NPCs behave creepy and with a low regard for human life, since the beginning of the game.

The Sylvannas Windrunner before Arthas captured her was all you say, but after he tortured, mutilated and finally killed her he used the powers of the Scourge to corrupt her soul, that is why she is how she is today. Had she died and been raised without suffering such things you'd find a very different leader of the Forsaken, perhaps one who would even have wanted to work with the Alliance, but that will never be.


Cry me a river. I will mourn the loss of a great leader to the scourge at her final burial.

[rhetoric]The Forsaken were abandoned by the Alliance, left to die at the Scourges hand, they returned and when finally free sought vengeance against the ones who had murdered them yet still were spat upon, killed, called 'monsters' by the Alliance, by the very people they had once lived alongside, is it any wonder they finally turned their back upon those they people. No, the true monsters are the ones who having once spurned the humans of Lordaeron decided anything that reminded them of the betrayal must be removed, the Forsaken had to die to expunge the memory of shame their existence bought about.[/rhetoric]


[rhetoric]The alliance didn´t leave them to die. It was suffering the equivalent of a zombie apocalypse at the moment, government breaking down, the leader murdered, military in ruins, Dalaran, their biggest center of learning, destroyed by a demon lord, communication routes devastated (losing the central portion of your lands and the seat of the alliance council will probably do that)
No one abandoned the people of Lordaeron. The alliance was in complete disarray after the first serious move of the scourge and simply lost the war. And well the survivors were a bit leery of the decomposing corpses. Unless the game implement of the tag is actually an in world thing, designating where their loyalties lie, it´s a bit hard to distinguish between corpse that wants to eat your brain and emo zombie. Well the whole forsaken thing could be an an actual plan by the Lichking for all they know.

Considering Sylvanas actions after the fall of the Lichking, invading neutral countries, taking in members of the former scourge, plague bombing cities, inflicting experiments on living people etc you could make a case that the forsaken are just a backup of the scourge, in case the main branch falls. And well hanging out with Varimathras, a former counselor of the Lich King and and an associate of the demonlord who destroyed Dalaran doesn´t strengthen the Forsaken´s position that they are decent dead people. As far as we know Varimathras was at least in the middle of the command ranks of the guys who wanted to conquer Azeroth. And he was a counselor of Sylvanas. For someone not privy to the workings of Sylvanas court he looks like a military "advisor" who relays orders from the demons. Or he could be a relay officer coordinating forsaken/demon military operations. Or ambassador.
Oh and the indiscriminate plague bombing of allies and foes at the Wrathgate. The normal citizen of Stormwind didn´t have the benefit that a Dragon Aspect showed him what happened there. He only knows that Putress assaulted everyone there and well the Lichking walked back into his citadel, the Horde and alliance army was killed to the last man. For all we know the thing about the Lichking being weakened by the plague could just be a fine litle lie and some forsaken working against the LK could just be some unwitting dupes who never knew what their government is actually planning. The Forsaken could have been some double agents for the LK, with a nice sweet story for Thrall´s bleeding heart and some idiots, now heroes, who never knew that their leaders are not really into this whole business. Sylvanas just turned traitor when she saw that their real Master would probably lose. Even if she was really free after Ner´zhul weakened, who says that she stayed this way when Arthas merged with him?

So even if not, the forsaken shouldn´t be surprised that peoplee are suspicious of dead people walking around, perhaps even loved ones, who behave very dfferent after their second "birth". Especially if you consider that the other undead guys, named the Scourge, are out to kill everyone and your faction was part of it not too long ago. Turning into mini scourge and doing some of the things that they held against Arthas only strengthened the position of their opponents. If Sylvanas wanted to build trust with her living counterparts and establish her nation as "We are people, too, just different and no we don´t want to kill and enslave you like the other undead who massacred your families recently and if we actually did so, under the thrall of the LK we are very sorry" she failed so miserably, it´s not funny. but well, there is probably a reason that Ranger-Generals were responsible for the safeguarding of Quel´Thalas borders and not in charge of diplomatic relations[rhetoric]
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby halabar » Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:37 am

Dantriges wrote:It´s unclear that they can reproduce biologically? Never heard of that.


The storyline when you do the starter zone, and the other in-game lore has shown nothing to say if the worgen can reproduce or not. If so, is the curse handed down the offspring? Don't know. Quite possible, but it's never been stated. If it isn't, that creates a dilemma.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Fetzie » Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:30 pm

halabar wrote:
Dantriges wrote:It´s unclear that they can reproduce biologically? Never heard of that.


The storyline when you do the starter zone, and the other in-game lore has shown nothing to say if the worgen can reproduce or not. If so, is the curse handed down the offspring? Don't know. Quite possible, but it's never been stated. If it isn't, that creates a dilemma.


Are the worgen immortal?
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby fafhrd » Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:25 pm

halabar wrote:
Dantriges wrote:It´s unclear that they can reproduce biologically? Never heard of that.


The storyline when you do the starter zone, and the other in-game lore has shown nothing to say if the worgen can reproduce or not. If so, is the curse handed down the offspring? Don't know. Quite possible, but it's never been stated. If it isn't, that creates a dilemma.


I don't remember any quests about gnome sex either though.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Dantriges » Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:00 pm

The testers who reviewed the gnome sex quests had to be put under heavy medication so Blizzard took them out of the game.

Don´t ask about the worgen sex scenes. Let´s say this much. There was some confusion about what models to use.

On a more serious note. Do you think Blizzard would debate the Worgen reproductive cycle in a game which minors play?
The starter quests were about the flight of the gilnean people anyways and most of the time, the main character was the only worgen around most of the time anyways.

Well in several RPGs of the P&P variety, lycanthropes/cursed by whatever/shapeshifters could reproduce normally. The actual results depend on the actual game.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Amirya » Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:03 pm

Dantriges wrote:Well in several RPGs of the P&P variety, lycanthropes/cursed by whatever/shapeshifters could reproduce normally. The actual results depend on the actual game.

Just to take this in an even more disturbing direction, if worgen were to mate as humans, would their offspring be human or werewolf? What about mating as worgen?

And for those who are truly disturbed in so many ways, what if it was one of each? (EWWWW)
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Thornir » Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:53 pm

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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby halabar » Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:54 am

Amirya wrote:
Dantriges wrote:Well in several RPGs of the P&P variety, lycanthropes/cursed by whatever/shapeshifters could reproduce normally. The actual results depend on the actual game.

Just to take this in an even more disturbing direction, if worgen were to mate as humans, would their offspring be human or werewolf? What about mating as worgen?

And for those who are truly disturbed in so many ways, what if it was one of each? (EWWWW)


Well, we know the following races can reproduce without resorting to forced conversion via a disease or plague:

Human, dwarf, elf, dranei, orc, troll, BE, goblin, tauren

That leaves...

Gnomes. Probably reproduce via a cloning device that despite attempts to fix it, still produces gnomes.

Worgen. Do they need to bite another to reproduce, or can they reproduce biologically? Also, since Gilneas fell, are there going to be more worgen "saved" since according to the storyline they slap you around a bit to knock you out of it? Are more of the rabid worgen still spreading their curse? Did the Forsaken commit genocide there? Where are these undead worgen?

Forsaken. Forcibly convert others to their "race".

Assuming the worgen aren't actively spreading their curse, then the undead are alone in not being a self-sustaining "race". While Garrosh might tolerate it as a means to an end for a while (until he sees some Forsaken Orcs), from the Alliance perspective, there's no common ground for the acceptance of the Forsaken. More so than any other horde "race" they must be eliminated. I imagine fear of the plague is the only thing keeping Varian from an all-out war on the Forsaken.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Dantriges » Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:15 pm

IIRC you were one worgen who was close to the edge of becoming mindless/feral and they had to use a dose of the stuff that would kill a lesser (wo)man.

Considering tha we have only seen human and dranei children on alliance side and orc and bloodelf ones on hordeside (never played Horde so could be wrong there) running around or being part of the orphan quests, we actually have no proof that the other races reproduce in the usual manner or at all. :D Just kidding.

I am not sure if Blizzard implemented children for the other races in the Cata makeover.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby bldavis » Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:43 pm

well moira does have her baby dwarf son with her in IF so ....ya
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