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Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:47 pm

Gerunna wrote:If you aren't an orc, you aren't people :P


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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Kelaan » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:12 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Passionario wrote:In what ways are Forsaken 'not people'?

Their reproduction involves applying necromancy to the corpses of a completely separate race, whom they then, despite any ties to their former living selves, coerce into joining their nefarious causes by giving them the illusion of choice when in reality they have none.


That's like saying that peasants in Stalinist Russia weren't people, because they have no choice about their loyalties. I don't see that as making them Not People, just that they have dodgy recruitment practices. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Forsaken choose to join up, as it's better than being dead again -- in contrast to the Scourge, who are at animated/enslaved against their will. (As illustrated very well by the Road to Damnation story.)

As for them being created via necromancy, what about Warforged, or Earthen? They're sentient beings, and we treat them as such. (Warforged are not in the wow universe, but basically they are a "race" of golem-robot things in Eberron.) We do quests for elementals, who are sentient as well.

Basically, I consider (and think most characters in wow would also) sentient beings who acknowledge an ethical compass to be "people", rather than the more narrow definition of "flesh-based humanoids who reproduce biologically". Clones are people, alt-universe dopplegangers are people, etc. After all, the Curse of Flesh turned the mecha-whatnots into fleshy things, so "people" (at least on Azeroth) were sentient before they were fleshy-things.
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:22 pm

Kelaan wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but Forsaken choose to join up, as it's better than being dead again


Play the Undead starting zone and tell me how much choice was involved there. People get reanimated against their will and are basically threatened into serving the Forsaken or else. The one man who tried to take a stand against this was re-killed. I don't see this as a real choice.
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Amirya » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:26 pm

Zalaria wrote:"Supernatural Means" applies to every flesh-based race on Azeroth.

Not 100% sure of vrykul origins, but based on some of the starting quests in Howling Fjord, I'd venture that humans weren't created through supernatural means, they were an evolutionary mutation of the vrykul.

Since worgen are curse infected humans, they too, originally were an evolutionary mutation of the vrykul.

And how, precisely, did draenei evolve? Theirs, also, could be evolution vs supernatural
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:30 pm

man now I feel bad for derailing this thread so hard
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Amirya » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:30 pm

As well you should, sir. :lol:
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby fafhrd » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:34 pm

It did become a pretty boring thread the last 5 pages or so. You're luck no mods have seen it and done their duty about it yet.
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:43 pm

fafhrd wrote:It did become a pretty boring thread the last 5 pages or so. You're luck no mods have seen it and done their duty about it yet.


siiiiiigh. this is all your fault you evil racist gnome hater.
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby bldavis » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:57 pm

Amirya wrote:
Zalaria wrote:"Supernatural Means" applies to every flesh-based race on Azeroth.

Not 100% sure of vrykul origins, but based on some of the starting quests in Howling Fjord, I'd venture that humans weren't created through supernatural means, they were an evolutionary mutation of the vrykul.

Since worgen are curse infected humans, they too, originally were an evolutionary mutation of the vrykul.

And how, precisely, did draenei evolve? Theirs, also, could be evolution vs supernatural

really the only supernatural races are dwarves and gnomes....and troggs....my bad
Last edited by bldavis on Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Kelaan » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:07 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Kelaan wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but Forsaken choose to join up, as it's better than being dead again


Play the Undead starting zone and tell me how much choice was involved there. People get reanimated against their will and are basically threatened into serving the Forsaken or else. The one man who tried to take a stand against this was re-killed. I don't see this as a real choice.


Imagine being born in Feudal Japan, or as a serf in medieval history. Your choice is serve the master/lord, or die. This is the same choice that the Forsaken have. It's different than the choice that Ner'Zhul (and later Arthas) gave the Scourge, which was "serve me willingly, or I will force you to serve me unwillingly". Forsaken at least have the option of real death again - though of course hardly anyone would choose that. We consider serfs and peasants (and slaves) to be "people", I extend the same to the Forsaken. :)

edit: Of course, I also find their actions completely reprehensible, and in many ways villainous. The individual Forsaken are probably mostly OK, ethically, but the Faction itself's goals definitely are something that makes my character want to oppose them at every opportunity.
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:12 pm

Kelaan wrote:Imagine being born in Feudal Japan, or as a serf in medieval history. Your choice is serve the master/lord, or die. This is the same choice that the Forsaken have. It's different than the choice that Ner'Zhul (and later Arthas) gave the Scourge, which was "serve me willingly, or I will force you to serve me unwillingly". Forsaken at least have the option of real death again - though of course hardly anyone would choose that. We consider serfs and peasants (and slaves) to be "people", I extend the same to the Forsaken. :)

edit: Of course, I also find their actions completely reprehensible, and in many ways villainous. The individual Forsaken are probably mostly OK, ethically, but the Faction itself's goals definitely are something that makes my character want to oppose them at every opportunity.

But it's not the same because the Forsaken were *people* before getting reanimated. They lost any claim to that status when they died and became corpses. The comparison between medieval serfs is just wrong because those people were born into their situation, whereas the undead were generated FROM people that had already lived their lives. They have been transmuted by the process of death and reanimation into something that is no longer their previous selves and thus no longer qualifies as a person. And yes, that whole process IS reprehensible.
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Moira » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:19 pm

fafhrd wrote:It did become a pretty boring thread the last 5 pages or so. You're luck no mods have seen it and done their duty about it yet.


If I were in charge this thread would not have de-railed.

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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby sahiel » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:25 pm

Out of genuine interest, what do you mean by 'a person' Sab? It's hard to understand exactly what grounds your position is argued from when by the dictionary definition, Forsaken are 'people', they are the men and women who make up the nation Sylvannas rules. Is it sentience you're arguing they lack, that they're simply an 'automated' version of the person they were when alive with no real driving intelligence, simply reactions? Or is it more something along the lines you feel it's a soul they lack, or perhaps something else entirely? What disqualifies them from being held alongside other races, their means of creation?
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Re: Weirdest Guild Rules You've Ever Heard Of

Postby Moria » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:28 pm

Moira wrote:The weirdest rule we have in the DIC is beards are non-mandatory.

If you were in charge we'd all be dead, get back in the kitchen where you belong!

Now, what this thread really needs is someone in charge who has depth, breadth, someone who has experienced ages untold.

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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:40 pm

sahiel wrote:Out of genuine interest, what do you mean by 'a person' Sab? It's hard to understand exactly what grounds your position is argued from when by the dictionary definition, Forsaken are 'people', they are the men and women who make up the nation Sylvannas rules. Is it sentience you're arguing they lack, that they're simply an 'automated' version of the person they were when alive with no real driving intelligence, simply reactions? Or is it more something along the lines you feel it's a soul they lack, or perhaps something else entirely? What disqualifies them from being held alongside other races, their means of creation?


That dictionary definition that someone pasted means something else entirely. It's saying like for example, "the people of America" or "the indigenous peoples".

The problem here is I'm trying to use the word "people" in place of the word "human" which has a completely different denotation in a world with multiple sentient races.

What I mean is this: Forsaken are human/elf corpses afflicted with the Undead Blight that makes them get up, walk around, and regurgitate information/behavior from when their brains were still functional. They are also apparently capable of perceiving the world around them and retaining information. They appear to retain their personal identity to some extent, inasmuch as if you ask one its name or history, it will tell you whatever it remembers from before it died, etc., and things of that sort. But beyond that, they're changed. They no longer possess the fundamental qualities that made them human/elves before. The resurrection process corrupts them and changes them into something else. Something evil and otherworldly. Would Sylvanas Windrunner, Ranger-Captain of Quel'Thalas invent a plague to kill everyone who stands in her way? Absolutely not. Sylvanas Windrunner was a paragon of duty and a champion of the High Elves. She would never do anything of the sort. And the horrible acts the other Forsaken carry out in the name of the Dark Lady are also thoroughly not the actions of the men/women they were before the horrific necromancy afflicted them. Those so-called "people" of the Forsaken are in fact no longer qualified to be called "people". They are unholy perversions that must be cleansed, to preserve the memory of the fallen.
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