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4.2 PTR discussion

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Re: 4.2 PTR discussion

Postby theckhd » Fri May 13, 2011 9:10 pm

I doubt it's a bug. Most bugs don't change the function of an ability like that unless it somehow got reverted to an earlier version of the ability.

On the other hand it doesn't seem like we'd be balanced on mitigation at 30% block, even if we had an easier time block capping. But that's just speculation, maybe we are that far ahead of warriors in terms of damage taken. It would be odd if that were the case though - the critical block mechanic should be a significant amount of mitigation, and if it is then on paper they'd be ahead by a decent margin.

What it probably means is that we're not getting the whole story yet. It's entirely possible that this is just the first pass, and more Holy Shield changes are coming in the near future. I'd be happy to see HS become something more interesting than a buff we mostly ignore.
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Re: 4.2 PTR discussion

Postby Arincia » Fri May 13, 2011 9:27 pm

Taking a 35% avoidance warrior block caped average damage to equal a same avoidance block capped paladin:
block caped warrior average damage intake= 28% (simple model new meta no shield block/hold the line)

So for our block damage to scale from 33% to 41.35% we would need our mastery to give .26% block damage per 180 points of mastery rating.

(actually this shows that a warrior would be slightly ahead of average damage taken once shield block and hold the line get factored in) I just fail to see how this can be balanced against warriors losing that 10% block.
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Re: 4.2 PTR discussion

Postby towelliee » Fri May 13, 2011 9:46 pm

I think this could be situational. For instance I am block cap for every fight I have about 183.5k Raid buffed. With this change. I will be 200k maybe little less 199k Raid buffed. As I just regemmed and buffed on PTR. So for me I'm exchanging the 10% additional dmg reduction while blocking for 14-15k more HP. Which could possibly make up for the 10% in dmg.

But I am not comparing to warriors atm
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Re: 4.2 PTR discussion

Postby Crimsonheart » Fri May 13, 2011 10:36 pm

I just dont understand sometimes what they are doing...

Cool downs
Pally Warrior
DP Shield Block (talented they also get 20percent spell reduction)
AD Last stand+enraged regen
DG Shield Wall

Those are supposed to be equivalent...now...
Warriors get +15percent block for being prot we got 10percent Damage reduction from Holy shield...now we are getting 5percent block...
So warriors get +10percent block over paladins (assuming the cool downs above are equivalent which...imo...warrior SB is better then DP)
Warriors also get +10percent crit block after a parry for 10seconds

So right now warriors are either (however you look at it) have 1 more bonus then us...imo thats a flaw that i saw at the beginning.
By their mastery they get 6percent block chance and crit block for every 9percent block chance we get (2:3 ratio)
so 15percent block chance and 10percent crit block vs our +5percent block now doesn't make sense to me...even if it was 10percent block chance 10percent shield block going by their mastery we should be getting 15percent block chance to offset (or still the 10percent reduction plus another slight upgrade elsewhere).

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Re: 4.2 PTR discussion

Postby Halvhir » Fri May 13, 2011 10:38 pm

Looks like they're considering giving us a way to get some of our WOG back...

Selfless Healer can no longer be dispelled and cannot be stolen via Spellsteal; and, in addition to its current effects, it lowers the cooldown of Word of Glory by 5/10 seconds.


Curious to see if that's worth sinking 2/1/any talent points into.
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Re: 4.2 PTR discussion

Postby Arincia » Fri May 13, 2011 10:41 pm

Well the biggest difference is probably the ratings require to block cap from either. same example above warriors need 4248 mastery while a paladin needs 3952 rating. So yeah 300 difference in ratings to block cap for both classes.
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Re: 4.2 PTR discussion

Postby Hokahey » Sat May 14, 2011 12:12 am

I think its far too early to start declaring the *potential* incoming nerf to Holy Shield firmly entrenching Warriors as the tank with better mitigation, particularly when we don't know for certain what changes will be coming to Warriors, or if this change will be making it to live, or if there will be other changes to Paladins to compensate.

The sky isn't falling.


Yet. :lol:
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Re: 4.2 PTR discussion

Postby Proudmoore » Sat May 14, 2011 1:22 am

Halvhir wrote:Looks like they're considering giving us a way to get some of our WOG back...

Selfless Healer can no longer be dispelled and cannot be stolen via Spellsteal; and, in addition to its current effects, it lowers the cooldown of Word of Glory by 5/10 seconds.


Curious to see if that's worth sinking 2/1/any talent points into.


Selfless Healer is a Retribution-only talent.
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Re: 4.2 PTR discussion

Postby Orthien » Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Right from the start of Mastery Pallys were meant to block more often for more and Warriors were to block a little less often for less but sometimes they Critical block. I am sure that the making us block the same frequency for the same amount without a critical block is not their plan and not a mistake.
There has to be some kind of change that they are still banging about and getting right that makes up for the lack of a Critical Block.

If this does go live in this form I will be very shocked, confused and disappointed.
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Re: 4.2 PTR discussion

Postby Fenris » Sat May 14, 2011 1:52 am

Orthien wrote:If this does go live in this form I will be very shocked, confused and disappointed.

That would not be the first time...

/pessimist
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Re: 4.2 PTR discussion

Postby fuzzygeek » Sat May 14, 2011 7:25 am

It's ok! Our increased damage intake is offest by our raid utility!

/tbc

(but yes, there must be another component to this)
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Re: 4.2 PTR discussion

Postby Tev » Sat May 14, 2011 7:29 am

If this only a partial change, then someone needs to slap their hand and tell them "NO!". They shouldn't impliment partial changes like this without releasing the full change, at least not without explaining some form of intent. It just pisses people off.
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Re: 4.2 PTR discussion

Postby theckhd » Sat May 14, 2011 7:53 am

Tev wrote:They shouldn't impliment partial changes like this without releasing the full change, at least not without explaining some form of intent. It just pisses people off.


While there communication could certainly be improved, I think it's a bit foolish to expect every PTR push to be fully implemented and perfectly balanced. It's the PTR, they're going to be pushing changes regularly whether the whole package is done or not because there's lots of things to be tested. That's just the way it goes.
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Re: 4.2 PTR discussion

Postby Treck » Sat May 14, 2011 11:59 am

Tev wrote:If this only a partial change, then someone needs to slap their hand and tell them "NO!". They shouldn't impliment partial changes like this without releasing the full change, at least not without explaining some form of intent. It just pisses people off.


Tbh, i think people in general needs a slap in the face.
I see so many people overreacting about this change, do you think this is unjustified? have you taken every "idea" blizzard has about firelands into account? do you think this is the last change they will do and never touch the subject again?

People look at one event, one change they have done, and think they did that change only to amuse themselves.
I even heard people saying they are nerfing paladins cuz to many people play them.
You dont know what blizzard has planned, and you dont know if theres coming other changes after this that is going to justify them, what if they nerfed all tanks? i wouldnt be suprised, tank dmg isnt really smth that is a real issue in todays raids.
Healing is allready "easy" and mana isnt much of a problem with good gear, maybe they wanna "nerf" all tanks to make it more of a challenge for the healers?

What im trying to say is that while blizzard doesnt always present things the best way they can, you cant go off and accuse them of ruining your class if you only watch your own changes, not to mention that its far from going live, they need to test stuff to see results, they encourage people to voice their oppinion about their changes, blizzard might have a lot more going on in their heads than they are letting go out on the PTR every small patch, but they can still miss some thing.
People saying their class is ruined needs to get a clue.

edit:
Might have ranted a bit to much against fellow maintankadiners, spent a lot of time on other forums where i think most cluelessness comes from.
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Re: 4.2 PTR discussion

Postby Worldie » Sat May 14, 2011 12:32 pm

Am i just terrible or the new implementation of the 4 set bonuses of the 4 tanks is pretty terrible (notably exception for the DK one).
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