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pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby Blackharon » Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:02 am

BlackNet wrote:There is no reason to give a count down, just drink up because it's going to start now.


There are several arguments to giving a countdown.

1) WTF does drink up mean? Unless it's your trademark I'd suggest using something more standard. Asking a pug to change is like pulling teeth out of an alligator.

2) Lag. Your 'Drink Up' could have come after the boss is pulled. If the DPS drinks then they can't use their heroism pot. If you'd have given sufficient warning via a countdown then they wouldn't have wasted it.

3) It's trivial for you to do. Seriously.

As an aside: I do my countdowns a little different, because of the horrible lag we had in our TS server in BC I always say "pulling in 3" and jump 3 times. After the 3rd jump I pull.
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby Meloree » Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:10 am

We countdown every boss pull. Every single DPS should prepot on every single boss pull, farm or not. I can understand when healers choose not to, or tanks (please, nothing to make Vengeance stack slower), but if DPS are caught skipping prepots on a regular basis they're going to get a talking to.

Note that if you don't countdown, your casters can't pre-cast, either. So not only do you prevent them from prepotting reliably, you lose 2-3 seconds of DPS time out of all your casters. And you lose pre-healing from your healers.

Not counting down a pull is silly. There's no good reason not to do it.
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby cerwillis » Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:47 am

I used to frustrate my raid by using my /rw PULLING IN 5 macro and then actually pull in LESS than 5 seconds, screwing with their heads. Kind of a 5, 4, 321 sort of thing. I have developed a rhythm now where I hit the macro, count to 2 then do my DP, Inq, start running, AS, or whatever so that my GCD keeps me from shooting my load early.
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby sahiel » Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:20 am

Nikachelle wrote:So you want us to... what... exactly? Back you up and say "fuck you dps I don't need to give you a countdown"?

If the lock would like a countdown, then give it to him. Are you really going to complain about it? Heaven forbid a dps should actually try to play better.

I've rarely been asked to give a countdown, but when I'm asked, I do it (this has been asked of me for some hard mode bosses and a few times so a DK can get his army up - he had lag issues). Why wouldn't you agree to help out the raid in some capacity or another? Did you not pre-pot armor pots in Wrath when they were two minutes long?

Entirely this. I'm now in the habit of saying "Pulling in 3, 2, 1. GO!" on every boss we do, it literally takes 3 or 4 seconds, an extra 70k+ damage per dps who pre-pots/pre-casts or enabling a DK to army before pull is entirely worth the tiny amount of effort it takes.

A better question would perhaps be, why do you not want your dps to do the best they can?
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby Malthrax » Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:51 am

sahiel wrote: A better question would perhaps be, why do you not want your dps to do the best they can?


OP wrote:To be fair the problems that this group has is not going to be fixed by pre-pots


The OP states rather clearly that DPS output is not the root cause of their failure. Sounds to me more like there's some L2P issues to contend with first.

Pre-potting is only going to help them if they're dying to enrage-like mechanics with the boss at ~100-500k health (depending on 10-man vs. 25-man), and ONLY if everyone in the raid does it, not just a single Warlock.

In any case, I'd still give at least a quick 3-2-1 before pulling a boss, if for no other reason than to reinforce the fact that I, as the Tank, am in control of the pull, and not the raid leader.
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby warden » Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:51 am

Also, if you're just too lazy to do a countdown, rejoice... DBM does it for you. The command is
Code: Select all
/dbm pull 5
and will give you a nice 5 second count down. We're not quite as strict as Mel said they are (we relax a bit for easy farm content), but for progression its required for us too.

* disclaimer* I hesitate to even mention it here, but in certain, extremely rare circumstances, pre-potting can be dps neutral or a slight loss (see Exemplar's math on pre-4pc ret with a hero in the first 60 seconds), so if a dps isn't, there's a minute chance they might have a reason.
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby sahiel » Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:54 am

Malthrax wrote:
sahiel wrote: A better question would perhaps be, why do you not want your dps to do the best they can?


OP wrote:To be fair the problems that this group has is not going to be fixed by pre-pots


The OP states rather clearly that DPS output is not the root cause of their failure. Sounds to me more like there's some L2P issues to contend with first.

In any case, I'd still give at least a quick 3-2-1 before pulling a boss, if for no other reason than to reinforce the fact that I, as the Tank, am in control of the pull, and not the raid leader.

Not at all.

Clearly the group has issues with standing in Bad Stuff [tm] etc, but that is in no way relevant as to why you wouldn't want your dps to do the best they can. Correcting that failing is great, but it doesn't answer why you would prefer a raid to do less damage than it appears people are willing and capable of doing, two entirely different subjects.
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby cerwillis » Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:16 am

sahiel wrote:Clearly the group has issues with standing in Bad Stuff [tm] etc, but that is in no way relevant as to why you wouldn't want your dps to do the best they can. Correcting that failing is great, but it doesn't answer why you would prefer a raid to do less damage than it appears people are willing and capable of doing, two entirely different subjects.

It may be a question of mental bandwidth or the amount of raid time that they have, but if I was trying to teach people a fight with tricky mechanics or stuff to avoid, I would not be interested in enforcing a prepot requirement. More serious raidgroups no doubt have fundamentals like this firmly in place so that they don't interfere with strats, but I don't want to hear that, "x player forgot to prepot", or some such nonsense when im trying to get them to stack somewhere, etc.

Edit: On topic, having said that, a countdown to pull is a perfectly reasonable request.
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby Blackharon » Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:31 am

Malthrax wrote:Pre-potting is only going to help them if they're dying to enrage-like mechanics


Or dieing to OOM healers.
Or dieing to standing in the fire. If the fight is 10 seconds shorter thanks to prepotting thats 10 seconds less fire to avoid.

You are right though, pre-potting doesn't fix everything; it doesn't hurt anything though.
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby Hrobertgar » Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:39 am

Having a countdown is helpfull for mental focus and preparation as well. Sometimes, like Halfus, other raid members are busy activating drakes or doing some other activity, all of which can be coordinated with a countdown.

As far as pre-potting, I also think if they wish to do so, you should facilitate them. Personally I generally don't do it while we are learning basic mechanics. However, once it is a matter of execution I believe pre-potting can be much more desireable, especially now in Cata with 25s duration over 15s in Wrath, when many dps pre-potted on at least some fights if not all.
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby thatguy » Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:53 am

People that have the insight to pre-pot are the ones that you generally don't have to worry about when it comes to fight mechanics. They're usually the last ones standing/least damage taken/highest dps.

I disagree in that pre-potting only serves to help with enrage like functions. There's a psychological effect there as well. Taking pride in your role/performance is something that many dpsers are lacking these days. You'd be surprised how "contagious" it is when you hear other people doing it and you're looking up at those people on the dps charts.

Taking the required two brain cells to click a pot prior to doing ANYTHING on a boss shouldn't over-extend your raiders. If it's too taxing, then you probably need new raiders.
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby Meloree » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:21 pm

warden wrote:We're not quite as strict as Mel said they are (we relax a bit for easy farm content), but for progression its required for us too.

* disclaimer* I hesitate to even mention it here, but in certain, extremely rare circumstances, pre-potting can be dps neutral or a slight loss (see Exemplar's math on pre-4pc ret with a hero in the first 60 seconds), so if a dps isn't, there's a minute chance they might have a reason.


Valid reasons are valid reasons - if there's a good reason not to prepot, we're all cool with that.

I don't know why anyone in the habit of prepotting would stop for farm content, though. Better farming makes for better progression. Every little bit helps.
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby amh » Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:41 pm

The time between ready checks and actual pulls varies a lot for us. All the way from "oh-shit-someone-wasn't-ready" to "soo.. it's been a minute, should we do another ready check?". Doing a countdown means your trees have a chance to get their lifebloom up, if nothing else.

To the OP's case: Pre-potting aside, warlocks want a countdown, simply because it means they can get an additional soul shard (5-> soulburn 4-> harvest 3-> 2-> 1-> soul fire).
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby Kelaan » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:05 pm

BlackNet wrote:Besides I said drink up when the guild leader said green board lets go. There is no reason to give a count down, just drink up because it's going to start now.

It's courteous (and appreciated by my raid members) when I say, "Pulling in 3, 2, 1". I say it while I'm doing my DP, Inq, Exorcism cast, so that I know I'm not going to cut it early by much. My raid members know to EXPECT this, which means that then they can pre-pot if they want. It's a nicety and an important courtesy to your raiders. There's a HUGE difference between that and saying "321GO<Avenger'sShield>", because often Vent lag and peoples' reactions are slow.

Similarly, your raiders aren't going to pot as soon as they hear "Green light, lets go" because they know there's some lag between you getting the order and actually executing, and it's good to know that the tank is not emergency-afk or something.

You lose nothing by saying that, and it may even foster an atmosphere of your OTHER dps pre-potting as well.
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby lythac » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:18 pm

warden wrote:Also, if you're just too lazy to do a countdown, rejoice... DBM does it for you. The command is
Code: Select all
/dbm pull 5
and will give you a nice 5 second count down.
Kelaan wrote:It's courteous (and appreciated by my raid members) when I say, "Pulling in 3, 2, 1". I say it while I'm doing my DP, Inq, Exorcism cast, so that I know I'm not going to cut it early by much.


I can't see why it wouldn't work but able to macro "/dbm pull 4" and DP together?

And you would get -

-4.0 "Pull in 4" + DP cast
-3.5
-3.0 "Pull in 3"
-2.5 Inq cast
-2.0 "Pull in 2"
-1.5
-1.0 "Pull in 1" + Exorcism cast
-0.5
+0.0
+0.5 Exorcism land + AS cast

The 0.5 accounting for latency/delay so your fellow guild members should see the pull happening around 0.0-0.2.
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