pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

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pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby BlackNet » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:32 am

One warlock got very ill with me for not giving him a count down timer so he could pre-pot so his numbers would be better. He was already top of the damage charts by leaps and bounds. The whole concept of pre-pot seems stupid in the grand scheme of things anyways. one extra potion is not going to make or break the fight or even give that much of a boost to his numbers, a 5 second spike in 8 minute boss fight is nothing.

Helpful maybe, needed and something must have definately not. So is everyone doing this and why are you doing it?

To be fair the problems that this group has is not going to be fixed by pre-pots. http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/jb3sed9ohl26y7iz/ This is the world of logs report. Sadly I dont have the halfus one included.
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby Passionario » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:44 am

BlackNet wrote:One warlock got very ill with me for not giving him a count down timer so he could pre-pot so his numbers would be better. He was already top of the damage charts by leaps and bounds. The whole concept of pre-pot seems stupid in the grand scheme of things anyways. one extra potion is not going to make or break the fight or even give that much of a boost to his numbers, a 5 second spike in 8 minute boss fight is nothing.

Helpful maybe, needed and something must have definately not. So is everyone doing this and why are you doing it?


I always try to pre-pot when possible. Volcanic Potions are dirt cheap to make, and I'd rather spend an extra one than wipe at the last 1-2%.

That said, our tanks don't consider saying "pulling in 5" on Vent (or pressing an equivalent /rw macro button) to be an overwhelmingly hard or humiliating task. Your mileage may vary.

By the way, it's not a "5 second spike" (unless you fail to warn your raid about the pull) for Warlocks and Shadow Priests. Due to the way DoT refreshes/updates work, the benefits of the pre-pot can be as long as a 30-40 seconds.
Last edited by Passionario on Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby Aerron » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:47 am

So I know that a lot of the dps in our raid group does it. I also know that at least one of the tanks I share MT duties with, also does it before pulls for more Threat.

It has to be pointed out that some of the fights are tight dps races. A "5 second spike" from 5-6 dps (add in the dps from 2 tanks) at the beginning of the Cho'gall fight could be the difference between having to deal with only 3 waves of slime or 4, which in that fight, is huge.

In general, a DPS who pre-pots is probably the type of DPS who researches every single way to squeeze out just a liiiiitttlle more dps out of his rotation/gear/spec. This is a sign he thinks like a pro and probably knows what he's doing. You want to encourage that. My wife is this way with her 'Lock. She lets me have it each time I waste her pre-pot :D
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:49 am

Well he may have overreacted a bit if he got particularly angry about it. Of course it's unlikely that one DPS pre-potting would turn a wipe into a victory, but I doubt that is all there is too it. He's probably working on improving his own performance and getting the most out of his toon, and these challenges he's presented to himself probably help keep him interested while the raid is progressing on encounters.

Assuming he doesn't get into the mentality where he gets tunnel vision trying reach some DPS level and dies in a fire, it's really a good thing. Since his request is pretty simple, I'd just try to comply with it.

I don't have hard numbers on how many folks pre-pot, but in my experience it is not at all uncommon to pre-pot on progression fights.
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby thatguy » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:52 am

Find your warlock and give him a hug. Seriously. I love it when people try to do everything they can to help the raid. Don't look at it like he's trying to pad the numbers because that's not what it's about.

Those first couple of seconds in the beginning of a fight where trinkets proc and you can just lay into the boss should not be underestimated. Most fights give you 15-20 seconds where you can dps without having to worry about mechanics. That pre pot burn damage can be the difference between a 70k wipe and kill.

It costs you nothing to say 3,2,1 Incoming. Relish in the fact that you have someone that deeply cares about his performance.
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby BlackNet » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:01 am

If it's not about padding the numbers then what is it about, perhaps I have missed something here. I dont see any of these potions turning a wipe into a victory and if doing a pre-pot does make it a victory when it would be a wipe then your group is doing something seriously wrong.

Is anyone able to show me some numbers of how much increase this technique gives the party in terms of total damage done over the entire course of a boss fight?
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby warden » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:02 am

It can make a difference for almost every class on a small scale. Across 16-17 dps in a raid, that can be significant. Ever had a 1% wipe on a progression boss? 3-2-1 pulling isn't hard. He probably shouldn't have flipped out, and it might not make or break that group (can't see the log at work), but don't rail on him for doing it right.
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby Flex » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:05 am

Uncommon gems get the job done, but rare gems get it done better. You wouldn't fault a guy for mentioning that to someone with uncommon, but you would if he raged on the person with uncommon gems.
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby lythac » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:16 am

BlackNet wrote:One warlock
<snip>
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/jb3sed9ohl26y7iz/ This is the world of logs report. Sadly I dont have the halfus one included.

The log shows zero Warlocks. He bail after Halfus?

BlackNet wrote:The whole concept of pre-pot seems stupid in the grand scheme of things anyways. one extra potion is not going to make or break the fight or even give that much of a boost to his numbers, a 5 second spike in 8 minute boss fight is nothing.


If you consider Halfus the hard part of the fight is getting the drake down as quickly as possible. If he can pre-pot then he would benefit from +1200 int for a minute which covers a whole drake (whilst also benefiting from Heroism/personal CDs for some of that time).
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby BlackNet » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:19 am

Yes I have wiped on a boss with 25,000 health before. Using gimmicks like pre-pot to clean up slop is not helpful or a good idea. 674,157 total damage from devouring flames on Valonia in 3 attempts is HORRIBLE (even I took some as I was reading something and not paying attention where I stood) No amount of pre-pots is going to help save that raid.

Yes the lock bailed after halfus. Seemed my logs were glitchy, my UI did not even show halfus as a raid boss.

Besides I said drink up when the guild leader said green board lets go. There is no reason to give a count down, just drink up because it's going to start now.
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby inthedrops » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:21 am

I would suggest the OP changes his position on pre-potting. Sure, it's not important on all fights. But on a rare few it is critical.

Also, DPS likes to do their job well and put up big numbers. It's how they have fun. Not doing a proper countdown so that they can pre-pot reduces their fun. Imagine a paladin healer using Blessing of Protection on you during the pull when you're trying to build initial threat on the boss, and now your threat is completely jacked because you missed those first few seconds. Same thing with DPS and pots.
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby Gavinas » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:24 am

BlackNet wrote:If it's not about padding the numbers then what is it about, perhaps I have missed something here. I dont see any of these potions turning a wipe into a victory and if doing a pre-pot does make it a victory when it would be a wipe then your group is doing something seriously wrong.

Is anyone able to show me some numbers of how much increase this technique gives the party in terms of total damage done over the entire course of a boss fight?


Each of the dps potions are 1200 of your primary stat for 25s. Looking at the scale factors at simulationcraft.org most dps classes seem to gain ~3 dps/point for their primary stat so the potion is worth ~3600 dps while it's up. Let's say prepotting gives you 20s of uptime on the buff where you're actually dpsing, that's 72000 damage per person that prepots.

Note that this is actually a somewhat conservative estimate of the value of prepotting for two reasons. First, 20 seconds of uptime is doing a pretty bad job of timing the pot use if you're getting a countdown to the pull. Second, the 3 dps/point scale factor is based off averages over the whole fight, but at the start of the fight most classes will be using dps cooldowns, have trinket procs up etc which will increase the value of the buff.
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:27 am

So you want us to... what... exactly? Back you up and say "fuck you dps I don't need to give you a countdown"?

If the lock would like a countdown, then give it to him. Are you really going to complain about it? Heaven forbid a dps should actually try to play better.

I've rarely been asked to give a countdown, but when I'm asked, I do it (this has been asked of me for some hard mode bosses and a few times so a DK can get his army up - he had lag issues). Why wouldn't you agree to help out the raid in some capacity or another? Did you not pre-pot armor pots in Wrath when they were two minutes long?
Last edited by Nikachelle on Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby Gab » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:40 am

BlackNet wrote:Yes I have wiped on a boss with 25,000 health before. Using gimmicks like pre-pot to clean up slop is not helpful or a good idea.


If you are working on progression pre potting should almost be required. A lot of the DPS in my raid do it, and they should be doing it. A fight like ODS heroic where you only have to worry about 1 bot's abilites up at the start is a prime time to get some extra damage in. Someone mentioned pushing Cho'Gal faster. Getting out of P1 Al'Akir Heroic quicker is huge. Regardless of the fight they should still be doing it. Just saying on some fights it is even more important. If you have 5 (10 man) or 15+ (25 man) dps that are pre potting it is going to make a significant difference.

Hell when Industuctable pots had a 2 min duration in Wrath, were you not pre potting? Even now I use strength pots for the added threat, that means I can switch to WoG and/or SoI faster. Pre potting is never a bad thing and you should be encouraging this behavior or at least cooperating by letting him know when you are pulling.

Edit: Looks like Nika already mentioned the Industructable pots, so yeah...
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby Gerunna » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:59 am

I'd also challenge your assumption of "a 5 second spike" on a boss fight as the effect from the strength, agility, and intellect potions last 25 seconds.

I know at least for my hunter, getting a second Tol'vir potion which is usually lined up with either Bloodlust or my second Rapid Fire makes a world of difference.
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