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Need help learning how to interupt properly.

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Re: Need help learning how to interupt properly.

Postby Aubade » Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:23 am

Lightstrike wrote:
Aubade wrote:
Lightstrike wrote:Hey now!

Nothing wrong with being a clicker :)


Everything wrong with being a clicker. It shows you aren't willing to spend a few minutes to improve your character. and if anyone trys to say you are just as good while clicking you're absolutely wrong and you know it.


Heh, I will concede that keybinds may be more efficient in the right hands, but not necessarily the best for everyone, like in in mine.. Clicking is more efficient for me :) I keybind things I don't use often that can't fit in mouse range.



No. Just no. You've never taken the time to learn how to keybind properly and use it in a raid. the fact that you think clicking can be efficient displays this. I've done both, when I started playing I was a clicker far and wide, then I learned what keybinds are, tried them and have never EVER gone back. Matter of fact the first thing I do when I start a new character is set-up keybinds for the skills I don't even have yet.

Ignorance is bliss I guess.
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Re: Need help learning how to interupt properly.

Postby Lightstrike » Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:50 am

What works for one doesn't always work for another, everyone has a different UI, right? I am all about confidence in my abilities, but I also respect my limitations. I'm not comfortable with keybinds and never have been.

If I played just with using my keyboard, I could probably get used to keybindings, but as it stands with the way I control my movement etc. I am more comfortable with clicking.

What are your keybinds? At least maybe then I may have an idea of how I could put somethign similar into effect for myself, I'm more than happy to give it a go.
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Re: Need help learning how to interupt properly.

Postby Epimer » Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:51 am

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Not shown: all hand spells and Righteous Defense as Clique bindings.

And they're pretty bad, really - I should move Avenging Wrath, trinkets, Divine Plea and Divine Guardian to somewhere on Z, X, C or V, which are unused at the minute.
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Re: Need help learning how to interupt properly.

Postby Fetzie » Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:59 am

movement QWEASD, turning done with mouse.

Spells
Code: Select all
CS - 1
Ardent Defender - Control+1
HotR - 2
Trinket /use - Shift+2
GoAK - Control+2
ShoR - 3
Inquisition - Shift+3
Judge - 4
Word of Glory - Shift+4
Healthstone - Control+4
Holy Wrath - 5
Divine Shield - Shift+5
Lay on Hands - Control+5
Consecrate - 6
AS - V
HoW - T
Rebuke - R (this is my interrupt button on all my characters)
Hammer of Justice - Shift+R
Avenging Wrath - F
Divine Guardian - Shift+F
Righteous Defense - G
Divine Plea - B
Divine Protection - Shift+E
Hand of Freedom - Shift+Q
Cleanse - Tab
Arcane Torrent - Mouse4
Hand of Reckoning - Mouse5


For casting on raid members:
Clique bindings
Code: Select all
Righteous Defense - Left MB
Hand of Protection - Right MB
Hand of Salvation - Mouse5
Hand of Freedom - Mouse4
Hand of Sacrifice - Shift+Mouse4
Word of Glory - Mousewheel Press
Lay on Hands - Shift+Mousewheel Press
Cleanse - Mousewheel Up


I think that is all of them. As for interrupting: get an enemy cast bar. Make it MASSIVE and put it where you can't miss it. I think mine is about 3cm high and 8 cm long slap bang in the middle of my screen with the name and time remaining in a huge font size. Red border for non interrupt-able, green border for interrupt-able.
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Re: Need help learning how to interupt properly.

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:44 am

I believe I've already been flamed for my lack of keybinds/mods (I don't use DBM/healbot/Clique/grid/etc.) I did switch over to bartender for a bit, but it recently reset everything that I had setup, so... it's been disabled and I'm back to the standard UI. Honestly, the only mod I don't think I could do without is Atlasloot (I have altoholic, postal, recount, and auctionator as well, but none of those are required by any means.)

That being said... I've never been a top contender for PvP, and my setup has me clearing PvE content just fine, so I don't really have a need to try and shake things up because someone else (a self-proclaimed asshole, no less) seems to think it's an advantage for everyone.
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Re: Need help learning how to interupt properly.

Postby Epimer » Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:11 am

The debate has been had over and over and over, and it usually comes down to stuff like:

- If you click your spells, how do you move without dropping your ability usage? If the answer is "I move with the keyboard so I can keep clicking Rend" then you're moving demonstrably less efficiently than someone who doesn't keyboard turn.

- There's often the argument of "I move my mouse during the GCD". Ok, but what about off-the-GCD abilities, particularly (fittingly) Rebuke, or Divine Protection, or Lay on Hands? Timing matters with those things.

The concession is normally made that some people can perform perfectly competently while clicking - but it's not optimal.
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Re: Need help learning how to interupt properly.

Postby Mannstein » Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:38 am

Epimer wrote:The concession is normally made that some people can perform perfectly competently while clicking - but it's not optimal.


^^So much this....
How can they rotate the camera, select the target, taunt, and without turning the back to the current target?

I don't think the "i'm so good that i do it under a GCD" quite works here...
But hey, one can take the horse to the water, one can't force him to drink... :S

Btw, just one question, when you want to use a GCD and a non GCD ability at the same time what do you do? use two mouses?
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Re: Need help learning how to interupt properly.

Postby theckhd » Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:04 am

It's a simple matter of reaction time and attention. Pressing a key (or a mouse button) is much faster than moving the mouse to a specific location. Probably almost an order of magnitude faster (~50 ms vs half a second as a rough guess). You really can't argue that this isn't true, since "clicking" involves moving the mouse and pressing a button, so it's necessarily slower than just pressing a button.

What this does is free up mental bandwidth. Since you no longer have to look at your bars to see where you're moving your mouse (to avoid misclicks and what not), you can be looking at the battlefield, encounter timers, or whatever else. That means you have more attention free to react to external stimuli. I'd be willing to bet that this translates very nicely into reaction-related deaths (i.e. standing in the fire) - a rigorous study would probably show that clickers are more susceptible to "fire death" simply because their attention is more distracted.

I don't think anyone is arguing that clicking is so bad that you literally cannot raid with it. But I do think that it's a fair argument to say that key-binding is going to be more efficient and lead to better play under normal circumstances. The excuse that "some people play better with clicking" is just that - an excuse. It's like saying "I know programming language X and not Y, so I'm better off writing this program in X," despite the fact that Y compiles and runs 10-100x faster. In the long term, it would be more efficient to spend a few days learning language Y so you can take advantage of it.

If you have years of experience playing as a clicker, then your first few attempts at playing with key bindings may feel less efficient. But that doesn't mean that clicking is better for you, it just means that you haven't spent the necessary time to familiarize yourself with the interface. Once you train yourself by developing a muscle memory for the key-binds, you'll notice an immense difference.

For reference, here's an excerpt of an e-mail discussion I was having with some other players about how we go about setting up our key binds.

theck wrote:To give you some perspective - I use keyboard + MX518, and I have damn near everything I can bound to a button. This setup gives me more than anything except a Razr Naga (which is useless to me, as I'm completely incapable of hitting only one of the side buttons at a time) or a gamepad (and even then, only if I use the joystick for movement to free up another 4 keys). Here's my bind setup:

Mouse4 - CS
Mouse5 - HotR
S+Mouse4 - SotR
A+Mouse4 - Inq
S+Mouse5 - AS
Mouse6 - Holy Wrath
S+Mouse6 - Cons
Mouse7 - Hand of Reck
S+Mouse7 - RD
Mouse8 - LoH
S+Mouse8 - LoH self
1 - RF toggle macro
2 - Judgement
3 - Rebuke
4 - HoJ
5 - I think this is HoP, but I can't recall using that bind since installing Clique
6+ are harder to reach, so I don't have anything there that isn't redundant with Clique/Grid. Most Hand spells use Grid+Clique and combinations of left/right click + shift
Q - Exorcism
W - Trinkets (castsequence macro)
S+W - Hammer of Wrath
A+W - WoG
ESDF - Forward, strafe right, backpedal, strafe left
AG - keyboard turn, could probably rebind these, but they're occasionally useful for circle-strafing
Y - Divine Plea
H - Divine Protection
X - Divine Shield
S+X - GAnK
Z - AD
V - Cleanse/taunt mouseover macro
S+V - Self Cleanse
B - fight-specific macros
S+H - Divine Guardian
S+C - Avenging Wrath
S+G - SoTruth
S+T - SoRighteousness (can't remember having used this since Wrath..)
S+R - SoInsight
S+D - Healthstone/Potion
A+D - Armor potion

I'm probably forgetting some, but you can see where I'm going with this. That's a lot of stuff to have key bound. Admittedly, I almost never click anything, so you might call me OCD about that. The one exception is blessings, which I do click, but those are rarely an issue (combat re-buffing doesn't need to be precise). I'm pretty insane about optimizing my key-presses, things that I cast a lot get the least intrusive binds (CS/HotR for example), things that are cast less frequently use modifiers. On casters, I try to make sure that instant-casts go on things that don't require modifiers, while things with cast times get modifiers.

M4 and M5 tend to get the most-frequently-used spells, which is one reason I hate the CS/HotR dichotomy. In ret, I have M5 set to TV, since CS+TV are the majority players, and Divine Storm gets used rarely enough that S+M4 is fine. But we cast HotR a lot, and it's easier to cast M4 or M5 while moving than S+either. Since I'm frequently moving while casting HotR, it has to go on M5, which makes SotR more annoying to cast at S+M4.

To illustrate the strategy a bit more clearly, here are the key-binds on some other characters.

ProtWarrior (Wrath):
M4: Shield Slam
M5: Devastate
S+M5: Revenge
M6: Thunderclap
S+M4: Heroic Strike
A+M4: Cleave.
Demo Shout could count in there too, I suppose, but that's another longer-term debuff (I think I use S+A for that on my warrior, but I forget).

Affliction:
M4: Bane of Agony
M6: Corruption
S+M5: Haunt
S+M4: UA
S+S: Shadow Bolt (standing still, so can use a movement button)

S+M6: SoC
S+F: Shadowflame
M5: Fel Flame

Fel flame is a bit of an oddity, because it's not a frequently cast spell, but M5 is usually given to an instant-cast. In the past it was Corruption, but now that I need that in Destro as well it conflicted with my Conflag keybind, so I moved corruption to M6. I should really move Life Tap from 2 as well, to make it easier to use while moving; I could probably swap that with demonic teleport (M8 I think?) and shuffle some things around.

Destro:
M4: Bane of Agony
M5: Conflag
S+M5: Chaos Bolt
S+M4: Immolate
A+M4: Soulfire (same in afflic, but not used anymore)
M6: Corruption
S+S: Incinerate (A+S is Shadow Bolt in Destro, Incin in Afflic)
Q: Bane of Doom (same in afflic)

SoC and Shadowflame have the same keybinds as afflic, Fel Flame is A+M5, I think.


Druid (moonkin) follows the same pattern:
M4: Wrath
S+M4: Starfire
M5: Moonfire
S+M5: Insect Swarm
M6: Starsurge
S+M6: Hurricane
H: Starfall
S+H: Tranquility
3: Typhoon
4: Cyclone (I think, this is also on M7 iirc? Moonkins are haxx, so many fewer spells than other classes that I have excess keybinds to go around)
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Re: Need help learning how to interupt properly.

Postby Dorvan » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:22 am

No question about it, clicking is not as efficient as keybinding. On the other hand, whether the difference matters depends on wehat you're looking to get out of the game. Now that I'm back in the game and no longer raiding. I don't own a fancy gaming mouse and just use the default action bar keybinds for the most part. That means I don't have more than 6-7 abilities I use on a keybind basis...basically the main rotation plus taunts. Anything else I click. Efficient? Not at all. Good enough for my purposes? Yeah.

So no, I don't buy at all any argument that clicking can be just as fast, but at the same time any given person can reasonably ask if they're game needs actually demand a keybinding set up, especially if doing so would require the purchase of additional hardware.
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Re: Need help learning how to interupt properly.

Postby bldavis » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:27 am

i have alot of things keybound, but things like RD and some of my hand spells are clicks
i typically have my rotation, my pulling abilities, and my oh shit buttons all keybound

for my dps toons/specs i will have my dps cds bound too
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Re: Need help learning how to interupt properly.

Postby Fetzie » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:43 am

Dorvan wrote:[...]
So no, I don't buy at all any argument that clicking can be just as fast, but at the same time any given person can reasonably ask if they're game needs actually demand a keybinding set up, especially if doing so would require the purchase of additional hardware.


But keybinding does not require the acquirement of extra hardware, a simple ~100 key keyboard has over 300 different available keybinding combinations. I play on an 8 euro (about $11-12) keyboard.
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Re: Need help learning how to interupt properly.

Postby Dorvan » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:49 am

Pyrea wrote:
Dorvan wrote:[...]
So no, I don't buy at all any argument that clicking can be just as fast, but at the same time any given person can reasonably ask if they're game needs actually demand a keybinding set up, especially if doing so would require the purchase of additional hardware.


But keybinding does not require the acquirement of extra hardware, a simple ~100 key keyboard has over 300 different available keybinding combinations. I play on an 8 euro (about $11-12) keyboard.



Well, to bind in a way I'd find enjoyable would require new hardware (I notice you didn't mention your mouse). Most of those 100 keys can't be reached from a hand at rest, and I find dual-key binds (at least keyboard/keyboard, keyboard/mouse isn't bad) to be unwieldy. For a pure keybinding set up I'd want to use a mouse with many more options than the simple 2 button + scroll-wheel device that I'm using now. YMMV, of course.
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Re: Need help learning how to interupt properly.

Postby Fetzie » Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:15 am

my mouse is a 4 button intellimouse with a wheel that I bought 3 years ago for the equivalent of $40.
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Re: Need help learning how to interupt properly.

Postby Kelaan » Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:35 am

theckhd wrote:Pressing a key (or a mouse button) is much faster than moving the mouse to a specific location.

What this does is free up mental bandwidth. Since you no longer have to look at your bars to see where you're moving your mouse (to avoid misclicks and what not), you can be looking at the battlefield, encounter timers, or whatever else.


I agree. For me, it's all about the muscle memory, sometimes shared across spec or class. My taunts are always shift-2 and alt-1. My interrupt or stun is almost always 5 or 6. I click a lot of things (I'm ashamed to admit), but there are some things that I feel warrant dedicated keys for:

- rotation abilities.
- interrupts.
- taunts.

These are all things where doing it right NOW (especially taunts or interrupts) is supremely important, no matter whether I'm moving, turning, kiting, throwing shields, or the like. They're also things I do often enough that I have muscle-memory of what to press. So, I reflexively hit 'e' for an emergency heal, or 'q' when I have a reactive ability (Templar's verdict, execute, whatever), or '@' when I see an interruptible cast.

The times it messes me up is when I have to bind both an interrupt AND a taunt (or two!). I used to have two different keys bound to Avenger's Shield, but have since changed one into my interrupt; as DPS (or in pvp spec, or classes w/o taunts), my shift-2 is my interrupt; it's an aberration that dissatisfies me, but I'm unwilling to play for a week where I'm constantly fatfingering a taunt instead of an interrupt, or vice-versa, so I roll with it. (:

Still, you don't need to keybind everything. Buffs, seals, most of these are usable relatively rarely. If you're starting with key bindings, experiment with binding your rotation abilities, taunts, and interrupts -- and that will likely be enough (with some practice) to convince you of the merits. It especially helps if you can put the interrupt or taunt (or emergency 'oh shit' ability, or "pop wings+trinkets" equivalent) on the same key bindings across multiple characters.

If you're worried about it screwing with your progression toon, try it on an alt first. You'll soon find yourself able to interrupt casts just about all the time. You can also experiment with it in your DPS or your pvp spec, especially with duels versus casters that depend a lot on non-instants.
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Re: Need help learning how to interupt properly.

Postby Shathus » Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:48 am

I've always used (limited keybinds) and my mouse for movement, but never got around to binding CDs and trinkets to easy to use slots. I finally bit the bullet and did it for some of them and now it's just awesome. I just need to make a power aura or something to more easily tell if they're available so my eyes don't have to go all over my screen, but at least my mouse stays put! :)

Other tip, for whatever reason, I've never liked binding things to mouse wheel up/down as I still like to zoom with it, but don't forgot about things like shift+scroll up or ctrl+scroll down. That made my life better.
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