Gaming Masochism

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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby theckhd » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:39 am

Paxen wrote:
Dorvan wrote:...then well yeah, you'd be very surprised. In any case, claiming it's a stretch to call it a game puts your bias in clear light. It's an activity with rules and goals for the purpose of entertainment...it's a game. Leveling is an easy game to be sure, but to say "if you don't fail at it along the way, it's not a game" speaks to the fact that you're coming from a particular "gamer" mindset more than it says anything about the game itself.


...

I admit that I actually struggle to comprehend your mindset.


Why? His logic seems pretty clear, as does your obvious bias. After all, you're the one suggesting making the ridiculous assertion that "leveling isn't a game" despite it having every characteristic of a game, except for the difficulty level that you think it should have.

Keep in mind also that the leveling experience is very different for an experienced player than a new one. Even if you ignore all of the advantages conferred by heirlooms or "inherited" benefits, a player with raid experience will have very little difficulty leveling a new character because they already know how the game works, what things to avoid, and approximately how monsters and abilities scale with level. A new player has none of those insights, and is thus much more likely to dive into a pack of too many mobs, mobs of significantly higher level, or elites, all of which are situations the seasoned player will naturally avoid.

And as has been mentioned earlier, there's no need for them to tune the difficulty of the leveling process to accommodate seasoned players. That functionality is already available, because you can skip ahead to a higher-level zone early on for a bigger challenge if you desire one.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Lieris » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:50 am

I think some people are confusing criticism of Cataclysm's levelling design with some ringing endorsement for Vanilla's. I think both are poor but for different reasons.

If you enjoy one or the other then great but I would like the game a whole lot more if I could make choices regarding quests, have some character customisation and experience some challenge outside of dungeons. Even when you do get to talk to an NPC you don't get a dialogue tree, rather a dialogue line. An extremely controlled experience wherein I can't tell an NPC to stick his quest where the sun don't shine and get a different quest line from a different NPC instead (the closest to that was the Centaurs but that was pretty banal and samey as choices go). My interactions with the world are completely linear and my experience the same as everyone else's.

It is what it is however and being able to play in the Warcraft universe trumps any misgivings I might have about the game.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby halabar » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:51 am

theckhd wrote:And as has been mentioned earlier, there's no need for them to tune the difficulty of the leveling process to accommodate seasoned players. That functionality is already available, because you can skip ahead to a higher-level zone early on for a bigger challenge if you desire one.


And would we really want leveling to take longer, just as a barrier to entry of the end-game content? That seems to be what the "old school" request is. Make the leveling and early content challenging enough to keep the "riff-raff" out of the end-game content. When the game was 1-60 that was more viable. 1-70 not as much, and forget it now. Water under bridge.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Lieris » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:03 am

halabar wrote:
theckhd wrote:And as has been mentioned earlier, there's no need for them to tune the difficulty of the leveling process to accommodate seasoned players. That functionality is already available, because you can skip ahead to a higher-level zone early on for a bigger challenge if you desire one.


And would we really want leveling to take longer, just as a barrier to entry of the end-game content? That seems to be what the "old school" request is. Make the leveling and early content challenging enough to keep the "riff-raff" out of the end-game content. When the game was 1-60 that was more viable. 1-70 not as much, and forget it now. Water under bridge.


I'd like the levelling game to be more meaningful instead of a bunch of easy crap you try to get over and done with ASAP so the real game can begin. I find it difficult to motivate myself to play my alts as I am not going to raid with them so the levelling isn't worth enduring.

Nothing to do with "riff-raff" :roll:
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Paxen » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:06 am

I'm not talking about making levelling *longer*. I'm also not talking about trying over and over again something like 10 times to complete every task. I'm talking about it having an actual chance of failure once in a while, which I don't think it has now. I don't get this talk of "bias" that I think games should have a chance of failure. Have you heard the old joke about the gambler going to hell? It's a posh casino, all the games of chance he can imagine. It's great, in fact. But he soon finds out that, yes, this is hell - because he wins all the time. This isn't a "gamer" vs "non-gamer" issue.

I will admit that it might be because I already know WoW. But it's still markedly easier than it was pre-cata.

As for skipping ahead, I don't do that because I'm doing this to see the content, the storytelling etc. I do like it, so I don't want to skip over stuff. I just wish they could have kept the game in the game, so to speak.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby halabar » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:14 am

Lieris wrote:
halabar wrote:
theckhd wrote:And as has been mentioned earlier, there's no need for them to tune the difficulty of the leveling process to accommodate seasoned players. That functionality is already available, because you can skip ahead to a higher-level zone early on for a bigger challenge if you desire one.


And would we really want leveling to take longer, just as a barrier to entry of the end-game content? That seems to be what the "old school" request is. Make the leveling and early content challenging enough to keep the "riff-raff" out of the end-game content. When the game was 1-60 that was more viable. 1-70 not as much, and forget it now. Water under bridge.


I'd like the levelling game to be more meaningful instead of a bunch of easy crap you try to get over and done with ASAP so the real game can begin. I find it difficult to motivate myself to play my alts as I am not going to raid with them so the levelling isn't worth enduring.

Nothing to do with "riff-raff" :roll:


Then....

How do you make it meaningful on the 2nd or 7th alt?

Part of the problem that most of the leveling content is lore-based, rather than class based, so once you've seen it, you've seen it. They've stripped out most of the class-based content that would be meaningful. Also, much of the lore is stale. Who gives a rip about the Fel Orc's story now?

I'd be all for more meaningful content for the first time you're doing a class. But what about when you do a class again? One option would be a fast-forward option like the DK once you've done a class once.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Paxen » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:24 am

halabar wrote:Then....

How do you make it meaningful on the 2nd or 7th alt?


If it was actually an interesting game, it would work. Mass Effect gets mad props for story, but I played through that several times after the story got boring simply because I liked the gameplay, which stayed fresh since I tried out all the different classes.

The problem would be how to make levelling both interesting and different enough from endgame activities to make rerolling fun by itself.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:34 am

Paxen wrote:
halabar wrote:Then....

How do you make it meaningful on the 2nd or 7th alt?


If it was actually an interesting game, it would work. Mass Effect gets mad props for story, but I played through that several times after the story got boring simply because I liked the gameplay, which stayed fresh since I tried out all the different classes.

The problem would be how to make levelling both interesting and different enough from endgame activities to make rerolling fun by itself.


Are we doing the replayability argument on WoW now too? If killing monsters on different classes isn't your cup of tea, then try doing something else! WoW has SO MUCH STUFF to do in it. And if you're bored with ALL of that, go play another game! I have a ridiculously long backlog of games that I haven't had time to play over the years mostly BECAUSE of WoW. And then despite all this, new games still keep coming out! It's ridiculous. Like, I haven't beaten Dissidia 012 cycle 13 yet, but I also just started Persona 3, and Portal 2 comes out next week! It's crazy.

You don't need to play WoW 100% of the time to "play WoW". If you only come back on major content patches or expansions then you're still getting something out of it.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Shathus » Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:41 am

I think it tough to measure how hard leveling is for most of us at this point. You really need a new player to the game doing it for the first time. Not even because of the absence of heirlooms, just because they may or may not know how the game works (yes, it's not anything super complicated but your first time is always different).

I remember on my first toon, I was like a level 8 mage (my friend was taking me around on his lvl 60 warlock). I had to kill x number of mobs for a quest. I walked up by an encampment, there were 3 of the mobs by a campfire and I shot a fireball at one. Suddenly I'm being attacking by all 3 and I go squish. My friend says "that's called a group!"

I think there are plenty of opportunities for mistakes while making your way to max level, it's just that we've already made them and know what to avoid at this point. Even if you haven't done a specific quest/zone before, you know the concepts and that gives you a big advantage.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Passionario » Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:52 am

Paxen wrote:I'm talking about it having an actual chance of failure once in a while, which I don't think it has now. I don't get this talk of "bias" that I think games should have a chance of failure. Have you heard the old joke about the gambler going to hell? It's a posh casino, all the games of chance he can imagine. It's great, in fact. But he soon finds out that, yes, this is hell - because he wins all the time.


So is this chance of failure something that you want for yourself? Or do you want other people to fail as well?
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Dorvan » Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:58 am

Paxen wrote:If it was actually an interesting game, it would work. Mass Effect gets mad props for story, but I played through that several times after the story got boring simply because I liked the gameplay, which stayed fresh since I tried out all the different classes.

The problem would be how to make levelling both interesting and different enough from endgame activities to make rerolling fun by itself.


A great illustration of how tastes and perceptions of replayability differ. I really enjoyed Mass Effect 2 the first time around, but although I've made a couple attempts now, I haven't been able to get more than an hour or two into the game since without losing interest. On the other hand I have 1 level 85, 3 80's, 3 at 60ish, and an assortment of sub 40 characters. That doesn't mean my tastes are right and yours are wrong, but simply that replayability does not sit on some fixed, objective scale.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Paxen » Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:59 am

Passionario wrote:
Paxen wrote:I'm talking about it having an actual chance of failure once in a while, which I don't think it has now. I don't get this talk of "bias" that I think games should have a chance of failure. Have you heard the old joke about the gambler going to hell? It's a posh casino, all the games of chance he can imagine. It's great, in fact. But he soon finds out that, yes, this is hell - because he wins all the time.


So is this chance of failure something that you want for yourself? Or do you want other people to fail as well?


Nice fishing. For myself. The reason I'm passionate about this is that cata levelling was something I was looking forward to - the old, boring quests gone, 1-60 filled with Northrend style goodness. I like levelling. I did up the challenge a bit for myself by pulling packs as often as I could (the safe, one-at-a-time style grinding is not for me). It's not hard to aoe grind, but it ups the chance of failure significantly. I you pulled an extra mob while taking on one after another you had a good chance to kill it by popping a cooldown or something similar. Taking on an extra 2 or 3 when you've already pulled five could easily get you killed - and if it didn't, that was even more fun.

So, like I said, I was really looking forward to Cata levelling, and it delivered lots of new, great content (which I'm enjoying - I'm nearly done on my hunter, and going to start up another one then). Sadly, it also lost a lot of what was fun before, so that instead of adding great stuff to the good stuff, it replaced the good stuff with new stuff.

I really don't mind an easy mode existing. But I'm sad that it's the only mode for levelling these days.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby theckhd » Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:13 pm

Paxen wrote:I really don't mind an easy mode existing. But I'm sad that it's the only mode for levelling these days.

Well, again, it's not. For a new player, leveling is probably sufficiently difficult. But for a seasoned player like yourself, it's going to be much, much easier.

What you're basically asking for is a "heroic" leveling mode, where mobs are tougher and challenges harder (with no material gain in terms of experience rate, otherwise it would feel required). I don't think it's impossible to implement something like that either, think "100% synch" type challenges in AC:Brotherhood (which could then be tied to achievements as well - "Complete quest X without killing mob Y"). But it's probably not going to happen just due to efficiency, since the developer time required to make it happen is almost certainly disproportionate to the amount of people that would take advantage of it.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Paxen » Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:29 pm

theckhd wrote:Well, again, it's not. For a new player, leveling is probably sufficiently difficult. But for a seasoned player like yourself, it's going to be much, much easier.


I don't agree that it's sufficiently difficult even for newbies (at least, not after level 20 or so - even newbies are a bit familiar with the game by then). We'd have to poll true newbies to really find out, which is a bit beyond me at least.

Heroic mode leveling sounds like a great idea. Sadly, WoW is set up so that those who want challenging gameplay find it in the end game, while those who don't want it do the soloing game. So most of those who would be the target of "heroic" leveling would pick normal just to get to the endgame faster.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Kelaan » Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:57 pm

"Heroic mode" leveling could be accomplished simply by letting you GET quests earlier, at a lower level than they're normally supposed to be gotten at -- you'd effectively be doing yellow and orange quests all the time. The down side is, once you master those, the XP income is likely even HIGHER (especially if you group up to do them) than it is now where half the quests are green by the time you finish a zone.

That would both upset noobs ("why are all my quests so hard?") and would likely elicit even more "it's too easy to level!" complaints from highly skilled players like us who LIKE soloing "group" quests.
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