Gaming Masochism

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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Yelena » Sun Apr 17, 2011 4:33 am

Teranoid wrote:
2. A timed ZA run was never about the fucking bear, in my opinion. It was a different (and arguably more interesting) way of clearing ZA, involving a different way of handling the trash packs.


This was. If you claim ZA was never about the bear then you have just proven how little you actually know about this game as well as its playerbase.

Of course the timed ZA bear runs were about the bear. What he meant with his statement was that if you were going to commit yourself to getting the bear, you were also going to invest the time and effort to develop and/or execute a viable strategy in order to successfully complete the timed run. In other words, the bear was merely a carrot dangling from the end of a stick.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Brekkie » Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:12 pm

Dorvan wrote:Not quite that, though you're in the right ballpark as far as scale :)


So what's it like working for the CIA?
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Passionario » Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:26 am

If you want levelling to be an interesting game (instead of click-n-follow entertainment), then the obvious solution is to fire up your imagination and invent a Self-Imposed Challenge (or twenty).

Play as though Hardcore mode was on and death was permanent (delete your character if he or she ever dies). Treat every item node collection quest as a stealth mission, abandoning and restarting it if you aggro a mob patrol. If you play a ranged character, pretend that enemy melee mobs are utterly lethal and require kiting (lie down and die if they land a hit on you). Use the old 40/60 level requirements for ground mounts, don't fly in Outland/Northrend until level 70/77, and never fly in Azeroth. Assume that all quests that have words like "hurry" or "urgent" in their text need to be completed within 5 minutes (or you'll have to abandon them and start again). Ignore your stats and choose your gear based on its looks. You get the idea. :)

Back in the day, we all had to use our imaginations and suspend our disbelief in order to play games. And if we could pretend that the floor was lava, or that our pointed fingers were pistols, or that '@' symbol in a roguelike game was an intrepid adventurer, then we can certainly pretend that our self-made challenges actually matter.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Paxen » Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:45 am

Passionario wrote:Back in the day, we all had to use our imaginations and suspend our disbelief in order to play games. And if we could pretend that the floor was lava, or that our pointed fingers were pistols, or that '@' symbol in a roguelike game was an intrepid adventurer, then we can certainly pretend that our self-made challenges actually matter.


Eh, there's a limit to how much work I want to put in to make the game challenging. Currently I'm starting a zone as soon as I qualify for the quests and wearing white armor and weapons, and now packs of four actually have a small chance of killing me. Already starting to outpace the quests though.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Dantriges » Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:41 am

I switched to a subtlety rogue for a change. I found it a quite interesting change of gameplay sneaking and preparing the kill via cc or sneak around instead of killing the enemy.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby halabar » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:34 am

Paxen wrote:
Passionario wrote:Back in the day, we all had to use our imaginations and suspend our disbelief in order to play games. And if we could pretend that the floor was lava, or that our pointed fingers were pistols, or that '@' symbol in a roguelike game was an intrepid adventurer, then we can certainly pretend that our self-made challenges actually matter.


Eh, there's a limit to how much work I want to put in to make the game challenging. Currently I'm starting a zone as soon as I qualify for the quests and wearing white armor and weapons, and now packs of four actually have a small chance of killing me. Already starting to outpace the quests though.


Ehh.. part of the problem is that we simply know the game to well now. That's combined with the fact that Blizz has taken out some of the challenging things that did separate the wheat from the chaff. DKs are probably the poster child for this.

Back in the day on my hunter, I had to plan what pet abilities I needed to learn. There was a lot of thinking and research that was needed, and I took pride in having a cat and boar that had all the talents. And that system worked in Vanilla and early BC. Would it work with 1-85 and 25 stable slots? Not a chance. Back then leveling was really part of the game, I'm not sure it is anymore for most players.

Many of the things that we did like that were challenging simply didn't scale as the game grew, and needed updating or removal. But perhaps that has gone a bit too far.

Right now I'm doing a grindfest to get my new shammy to 85. Did 29 levels this weekend, mostly in one day. Would I roll a new alt if I had to do it the old way? Not a chance. Does the new way take the challenge out of it? Yes. There's the rub.

Hmmm.... Perhaps the real irony is that the ease of creating and leveling new alts has fueled the burnout and the lack of dedication to learning any one class well. If the system encouraged people to focus on their mains more, the game might be better for it.

Or put another way, the way that Blizz has encouraged altitis has devalued the time and effort put into our mains. Thinking about my current 85s, I have a lot of things I could do on them, but I have enough now that I have no desire to put more effort into any single one, as it might be on the shelf next week. Yeah, I think more that anything, that's the problem, at least for me. All these new toons serve to devalue the effort to have any one be the best I can make it.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Flex » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:45 am

halabar wrote:Perhaps the real irony is that the ease of creating and leveling new alts has fueled the burnout and the lack of dedication to learning any one class well. If the system encouraged people to focus on their mains more, the game might be better for it.

Or put another way, the way that Blizz has encouraged altitis has devalued the time and effort put into our mains. Thinking about my current 85s, I have a lot of things I could do on them, but I have enough now that I have no desire to put more effort into any single one, as it might be on the shelf next week. Yeah, I think more that anything, that's the problem, at least for me. All these new toons serve to devalue the effort to have any one be the best I can make it.


Could this be because you are not a raider? Of the ten people in my raid only one has but in any real effort to gear up his alts to a raid ready level the others will do the alts at their own pace and for other people's alts, for example I'll heal an alt tank on my alt paladin but the only time I ever did something by myself for that paladin was to get an orb for making goggles.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Paxen » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:12 am

I have to say it again, the thing that really makes levelling a nearly non-interactive movie is that the big quests are all vehicle quests or quests where you have (very) powerful allies. I think vehicle fights can be fun, but there are a bit many and they can't be very complex since it's something you have no time to learn and won't use at all later.

Weirdly enough the end quest in Desolace is nearly doable without the vehicle. I slapped on a couple of heirloom items and managed to take down the doomguards with the aid of the single centaur they fight. Didn't manage to take down the priestess sadly, might have done it with full heirlooms. If this (accidental) system was carried through to all the quests I think that might have worked - there's a vehicle you can use if you want, but it's possible (but hard) to do the quest without it.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby halabar » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:15 am

Flex wrote:
halabar wrote:Perhaps the real irony is that the ease of creating and leveling new alts has fueled the burnout and the lack of dedication to learning any one class well. If the system encouraged people to focus on their mains more, the game might be better for it.

Or put another way, the way that Blizz has encouraged altitis has devalued the time and effort put into our mains. Thinking about my current 85s, I have a lot of things I could do on them, but I have enough now that I have no desire to put more effort into any single one, as it might be on the shelf next week. Yeah, I think more that anything, that's the problem, at least for me. All these new toons serve to devalue the effort to have any one be the best I can make it.


Could this be because you are not a raider? Of the ten people in my raid only one has but in any real effort to gear up his alts to a raid ready level the others will do the alts at their own pace and for other people's alts, for example I'll heal an alt tank on my alt paladin but the only time I ever did something by myself for that paladin was to get an orb for making goggles.


Well, I'm actually raiding again, on a casual level, but I am raiding.

But I think it's something more basic than that, and raiding might actually be the cause of it, along with the altitis. The more toons I have, the less I want to put effort into things like grinding rep for rep gear, or just being completionist.

I think there are two factors at work, first, there are simply too many toons to work on.

Second, and more importantly, the proliferation of alts devalues the effort spent on any single one of them. On my main (former main?) hunter, I was working hard in Wrath on things like getting Salty. Since Cata, I just can't get motivated to work on him like that. And even early in Cata I was putting in a lot of effort to collect rare pets, now on my new raiding hunter, I'm just collecting what I need for the raid.

The things that were valued challenges have lost a lot of their meaning, or at least significance. A lot of different changes to the game have caused this over the years.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby halabar » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:17 am

Paxen wrote:I have to say it again, the thing that really makes levelling a nearly non-interactive movie is that the big quests are all vehicle quests or quests where you have (very) powerful allies. I think vehicle fights can be fun, but there are a bit many and they can't be very complex since it's something you have no time to learn and won't use at all later.

Weirdly enough the end quest in Desolace is nearly doable without the vehicle. I slapped on a couple of heirloom items and managed to take down the doomguards with the aid of the single centaur they fight. Didn't manage to take down the priestess sadly, might have done it with full heirlooms. If this (accidental) system was carried through to all the quests I think that might have worked - there's a vehicle you can use if you want, but it's possible (but hard) to do the quest without it.


Why even quest?.. with full heirloom and the guild bonus, I'm dinging once per dungeon in the longer ones if they have any dungeon quests.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby mavfin » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:24 am

Paxen wrote:
Passionario wrote:Back in the day, we all had to use our imaginations and suspend our disbelief in order to play games. And if we could pretend that the floor was lava, or that our pointed fingers were pistols, or that '@' symbol in a roguelike game was an intrepid adventurer, then we can certainly pretend that our self-made challenges actually matter.


Eh, there's a limit to how much work I want to put in to make the game challenging. Currently I'm starting a zone as soon as I qualify for the quests and wearing white armor and weapons, and now packs of four actually have a small chance of killing me. Already starting to outpace the quests though.


All this sentence says to me is that you want Blizzard to cater just to you and your type of gamer. Not gonna happen. They will cater to whoever they'll get the best revenue stream from, and you're not it.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Paxen » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:26 am

mavfin wrote:All this sentence says to me is that you want Blizzard to cater just to you and your type of gamer. Not gonna happen. They will cater to whoever they'll get the best revenue stream from, and you're not it.


So I'm not allowed to be sad that they're no longer catering to me?

Note that I still like the quests, I just mourn that they had to remove any trace of "game" from the game when they updated them.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Flex » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:31 am

halabar wrote:I think there are two factors at work, first, there are simply too many toons to work on.


But what makes you feel like you have to work on them?

I level a lot of dudes but very rarely does the playstyle light me up. Like I mentioned earlier the only 85 classes I enjoy in a group setting are Paladins and Hunters but I have an 85 rogue and death knight in addition to the hunter and two paladins, not to mention the various 80s I have deleted in the past. However the DK and Rogue see no play time outside of profession/finishing quests play and even the hunter sees very limited play time since I enjoy paladins so much more.

I guess I don't understand the "I'm 85, guess I need to get end game ready" mindset for characters that probably never will see the end game.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby halabar » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:56 am

Flex wrote:I guess I don't understand the "I'm 85, guess I need to get end game ready" mindset for characters that probably never will see the end game.


But what's the point to them? Or put another way, the challenges aren't there to make the toon rewarding on it's own merit. Back to my hunter example, in the day, there was challenge to going out and getting the pet skills you needed, and it was almost a minigame in itself. Once 4.1 comes, you'd be a fool to have more than 2 or 3 pets till you hit 85.

So if I'm not supposed to improve the toons as much as I can, what else am I supposed to do with them? Blizz has funneled people to raiding as the end-game, and have facilitated that with enabling dungeon grinding. It's all about creating and gearing toons faster and faster.

Unless you are into the PVP world, I would still argue that we've lost value and significance over time.

Edit: I suppose time available to play the game is a factor as well. If I was limited to 3-4 hours/week, my perspective might change. But if that was the case, it might seem too daunting.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Flex » Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:06 am

halabar wrote:
Flex wrote:I guess I don't understand the "I'm 85, guess I need to get end game ready" mindset for characters that probably never will see the end game.


But what's the point to them?


For me personally it is simply to experience the world/game through that class. I hate casters compared to melee so playing as one frustrates the heck out of me but it opens up new experiences to me on how to play the game which funnels back into how I play my main and their professions support my main. So alts for me are more about making myself better at the game than making that alt geared.
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