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Tying Vengeance to Expertise

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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby knaughty » Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:59 am

Thinking about it, the solutions we're coming up with are close enough to: Buff basic tank damage by 50% or so and delete Vengeance
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Passionario » Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:55 am

knaughty wrote:Thinking about it, the solutions we're coming up with are close enough to: Buff basic tank damage by 50% or so and delete Vengeance

Or, better yet, buff basic tank threat, rather than damage, to avoid inevitable counter-nerfs due to PvP imbalance (or, gods forbid, degenerate "22 tanks + 3 healers) raid compositions).
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Tev » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:26 am

As long as tank damage doesn't go above 80% of DPS classes, I find it highly unlikely that a raid would stack tanks (besides, these days where would you even find that many tanks)
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Flex » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:02 am

Tev wrote:As long as tank damage doesn't go above 80% of DPS classes, I find it highly unlikely that a raid would stack tanks (besides, these days where would you even find that many tanks)


A potential issue with a static buff instead of one based on taking damage is that AOE specific fights may have benefit from melee speccing into the tank spec for the vengeance benefits.

Lower the ceiling, have it not stack but instead be a ten second buff that depends on taking direct damage so it is either 0% or 100% capped at all times.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Tev » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:47 am

True, but I think they need to go back to the model they were trying for in BC/Wrath where tanks did enough damage on their own that threat modifiers were not needed as heavily. I personally don't like relying on RNG or situational mechanics and it's become a degree of frustration for me. It's why I'd like to see the removal of venegence and shift the focus to tank skills/mechanics themselves for holding threat.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Malthrax » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:29 am

knaughty wrote:Blizzard can want use to wear hit/expertise as much as they like. But unless going in with 0/0 is going to kill the tank, we won't care what they want.


If our threat output was tied closer to our ACTUAL ability to do damage on a consistent basis, instead of artificially inflated with this "hit the boss once, then go make a sammich" Vengeance crap, we'd gravitate toward using hit/exp natually.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Tev » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:21 am

I think that unless it ties directly into survival, tanks will skip any threat stats in favor of mitigation/avoidance besides the bare minimum needed to get the job done on progression. After progression there may be some swapping out for quality of life issues, but in progression, the tanks job is to survive first and foremost. Tank dies, it's pretty much a wipe, so threat issues (if any exist) will likely be deferred to the DPS.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Dantriges » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:52 am

Tev wrote:True, but I think they need to go back to the model they were trying for in BC/Wrath where tanks did enough damage on their own that threat modifiers were not needed as heavily. I personally don't like relying on RNG or situational mechanics and it's become a degree of frustration for me. It's why I'd like to see the removal of venegence and shift the focus to tank skills/mechanics themselves for holding threat.


IIRC tank damage in BC was abysmal and a lot lower compared to DPS than now. It was better in Wrath but DPS scaled better of course. I think tank damage was around 20% or so of a DPS guy in BC but my memories are a bit hazy.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby RedAces » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:56 pm

hey,

RedAces wrote:
knaughty wrote:Maybe it needs to be: AP = Stam - 3k, always on.

So everytime an encounter needs high AE-Damage, all dps switch to their tank specc and cleave the hell out of it?
Thats why Vengeance is what it's now...
(I'm not trying to demote your idea, but we had this type of problem in wrath heroics and Blizz wanted to fix this...)


knaughty wrote:Thinking about it, the solutions we're coming up with are close enough to: Buff basic tank damage by 50% or so and delete Vengeance


"Tanks, now 50% more DPS at AE situations! yeah!" I think I'm getting ignored here ;)

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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby bldavis » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:30 pm

i think the best option is going to take the damage done boost via veng(extra AP), and add it to threat instead

as far as RF, make it a toggle.
when you think about it, pallies are the only one that dont have a set stance/form/pres for tanking
we have RF...a spell

is it possible to dispell defensive stance or bear form?
tie veng to that tanking threat booster and have it apply to threat only

that way if we have damage-reducing talents, they are tied to our tanking threat boost.
tanks will take them for ..well..tanking *bonks head*
as far as protvp then tanks are trading off damage output for survival.

sure they will take forever to die, but they wont one shot everyone at the same time.
as much as i love doing that, i dont think its right

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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Crimsonheart » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:41 pm

isnt RF no longer a magic effect?
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Aubade » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:07 pm

RF hasn't been dispellable for a LONG LONG time. Also; If RF got dispelled that would mean PvP. And last I checked there's no benefit of having RF up unless you need threat which is extremely useful in PvP eh
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:12 pm

lythac wrote:Tie vengeance to average ilvl. One issue is raid buffs won't effect it, which may be a good or bad thing.

Then people would stack useless/pvp gear in their bags that have higher ilvls to inflate their vengeance... they'd have to come up with a better way to determine avg ilvl than "take the highest ilvl of any item you have that can be equipped in that slot."
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Mannstein » Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:01 am

thegreatheed wrote:
knaughty wrote:Tank threat doesn't scale with gear
Basic problem is that tanks collect stamina & avoidance, DPS collect crit & haste. Der! Damage spec have their DPS scale a lot faster than tank DPS.
Solution: Scale tank DPS with tank stats.


Yes, tank dps needs to scale somehow with tank gear, but Blizzard wants tank gear to have some threat stats on it.

Problem 1: Increasing avoidance and mastery (tank stats!) REDUCES your Vengeance! Fundamental problem
Problem 2: Vengeance stacks too slowly and sometimes doesn't max-stack. Tuning issue - Vengeance too small
Problem 3: 100% Vengeance TPS is retardedly high. Tuning issue - Vengeance too big
Problem 4: Tanks aren't wearing any threat stats.


I have to agree with thegreatheed, it's all related to the Vengeance, all "problems" identified by knaughty can by solved by changing Vengeance..
If Blizz increases the rate one gain vengeance but decrease the maximum cap, so after 2/3 blocked hits the tank is allready at maximum (lesser then now) Vengeance.
This would give:
A) Easier starting threat
B) Easier tanking on hc's for those less skilled (new tanks)
C) Nerf the dumb threat advantage after the second shield.
This would provide the responses to the 4 problems above.
The issue is is that we are trying to agree on a issue that impacts our way of playing.
For me when tanking i want:
A) To be carefull with my gear strategy, when the BIS is anything that hasn't threat stat, something is wrong.
B) Threat must matter, and so Threat stats must matter.
I might not agree but i have to respect that some persons would like "Solution: Scale tank DPS with tank stats."
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby lythac » Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:12 am

Skye1013 wrote:
lythac wrote:Tie vengeance to average ilvl. One issue is raid buffs won't effect it, which may be a good or bad thing.

Then people would stack useless/pvp gear in their bags that have higher ilvls to inflate their vengeance... they'd have to come up with a better way to determine avg ilvl than "take the highest ilvl of any item you have that can be equipped in that slot."


The game knows both average ilvl from your equipped gear and average ilvl from your bags/bank/equipped. Well the armory does, can't see why the game wouldn't.
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