Tying Vengeance to Expertise

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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Alchy » Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:37 am

If it was down to me, I'd scrap Vengeance, bring back 80%(or whatever works well nowadays) bonus threat on Righteous Fury, and allow tanks to scale surviv/threat gear as they need to, dependant upon the content theyre running, and the dps theyre running with, just like they used to. Worked fine then, I dont see why it wouldnt work now. Would, imo at least, alleviate the problem of tank becoming a 6th dps on low raid encounters and unbalancing these, as well as giving each tank the choice to pick whatever stats they need from the pool to suit their own tanking style and skill. Even more so now we can reforge into these stats.

Also, minor point:

<Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Passionario » Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:41 pm
Simple solution: Make Vengeance scale with Hit and Expertise (with its current level corresponding to hit/exp-capped state).>

Wasnt this the first post regarding scaling vengeance with hit and expertise, 2 posts ahead of Shoju? :)
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Passionario » Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:58 am

Alchy wrote:Wasnt this the first post regarding scaling vengeance with hit and expertise, 2 posts ahead of Shoju? :)


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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Shoju » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:29 am

You would be correct that Passionario did mention it being tied to hit and expertise before me. I think why it was 'tied' to my name was because I boiled it down to simply expertise, and spoke against hit being a factor in tank gea.

On the other hand Passionaro, I don't think I'm a notable or reputable source of anything but condescension, bitterness, and chicken little syndrome. The nerfs in 4.1 I think are the first time......... EVER I have agreed with the way that blizzard is nerfing paladins.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Meloree » Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:54 am

Dantriges wrote:I didn´t mean the average DPS of te guys. But there is some difference between DPS who spec into threat reduce, use their aggro wipes and the tools I ran around with at this time.

Like the hunter who mded consistently on the offtank during Sindragosa hardmode because he couldn´t be bothered to switch. The hunter who showed me something I didn´t knew. You can MD on totems. It was really fun watching the hunters md anything but the tanks or nothing at all.
The DK who specced no threat reduce, attacked every mob, not caring if the tank was actually there or not, sitting on full rune power and active runes, telling the rage starved warrior that he could do more threat tank specced (yeah sure hitting IT over and over is a measure of skill). Using a threat dump was considered waste of a gcd in the DPS roster but attacking an add spawn during the LK encounter with all cds active assoon as it spawned and the tank had only time for one hit was considered fine play, don´t ask for an MD then, please.

So well I meant competent DPS, who actually knew what they were doing instead of doing their priority system posted on EJ over and over or just fooling around. You had no threat problem if DPS skill=gear, you had some if DPS gear > skill. But silly me, must be me not doing my rotation properly.


Nobody can read your mind on a forum, if you didn't say it explicitly then it's not particularily fair to be snippy when people respond to what they think you mean.

As far as it goes, though, your most recent examples are not indicative of a tank-threat crisis, either. It's indicative of bad/sloppy play from other people. I think it's particularly terrible game design if tank-threat is so overpowered that it compensates completely for that kind of play. You know - like now.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Dantriges » Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:42 am

I wasn´t snippy, sorry if it sounded that way, just remembering that era recalled some frustrating experiences. A lotof it, probably seeped into my last post.

And in a perfect world, yes, it would be bad if tank threat would cover that amount of bad play.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Tev » Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:50 am

Imo, Tank damage should be around the 70~80% of DPS classes, and with modifiers, threat should be around 115~130% mark. Tank DPS/Threat stats should be tied into existing tanking stats, but focused on the stats that increase your ability to do your potential damage (ie hit, exp), without excessively increasing your potential damage (ap, haste, crit). This would allow tank threat/damage to be consistant and not overly reliant on chance, tied to gear (Str in gear would be would be the primary increase to tank threat/damage cap, as I believe was intended), and scalable to the content based on that.

From that then they can get rid of gimmick mechanics and not let threat be a faceroll, you dps before the tank, you WILL pull threat. You don't watch yourself, you WILL pull threat. Make DPS get those threat reducing talents and use the threat reducing abilities.

<joke>
I also think Tanks should get the ability to take half of the DPS of a player as their own, so any DPS that don't behave can get their damage spanked and ridiculed by the rest of the raid.
</joke>
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Dantriges » Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:08 pm

They probably fear that if you do 70-80% of a DPS damage, that people who are able to spec tank, switch to tank spec and equip DPS equip in PVP.

There are no threat reducing talents at the moment and some classes miss threat reduing abilities.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Malthrax » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:54 am

Dantriges wrote:They probably fear that if you do 70-80% of a DPS damage, that people who are able to spec tank, switch to tank spec and equip DPS equip in PVP.

There are no threat reducing talents at the moment and some classes miss threat reduing abilities.


Screw PVP?

or, better, just bake a 50% damage reduction on all single-target and AOE attack moves vs. player targets into the "Protection" baseline.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Darielle » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:10 pm

Screw PVP?


Not an option for Blizzard.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Shoju » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:53 pm

Darielle wrote:
Screw PVP?


Not an option for Blizzard.


If only it was.... Man I hate pvp.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Dantriges » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:23 pm

I get the feeling that 70% of things that are weird in PvE happen because of PvP.
And 80% of the weird things players do are because of achievements.

I wish they had taken the opportunity to separate both parts of the game a bit further. Both have different design constraints that limit each other.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:37 pm

You can look at my pally and see what his gear was like (Aleksandrov - Winterhoof (US)) at the end of LK (haven't leveled him, so he's still wearing it :)). I never had any issues tanking (did mostly 10 man, but the only time I ever had to taunt was during tank switches or to pick up a spawning add.) I thought it was interesting that I ended up as a PuG in another guild's run, and the bear tank stated that he had to try to hold threat against me because I was a pally tank that "actually knew what he was doing." I didn't think I was that awesome, but apparently it was better than any other pally tanks he'd run with. I can't even recall ever having an issue on Saurfang, when I wasn't able to Consecrate, and had to watch my Hammer hits so they didn't whack the fiends upon spawning. Sure the ranged wouldn't get 100% dps time on Saurfang, but melee did, and I never had one peel off me (even had to stop hitting sometimes after the tank swap so I didn't peel off the other tank.)

That being said, I only ever went 6/12 (tried PP once and Dreamwalker twice, then got deployed and wasn't able to raid.) But even with my less than stellar gear, I never saw a threat issue.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Tev » Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:47 am

You know, for the PvP issues, that could easily be solved by tying a good portion of damage that tanks do to getting hit or directly attacked. Abilities that activate when the tank dodges/parries/blocks, some that activate on spell cast (spell reflect is a good example), means that in PvP, you leave the tanks alone or CC them, and save them for last. Then the damage a tank *can* do doesn't mean much, because the damage tanks *will* do in PvP will be less if people play smart.

But then again, a lot of PvP issues (i.e. Nerfs)seem to arise from people not playing smart, wanting to button mash and earn EZ epics. Its actually kinda sad with their track record of leaving some classes to dominate in PvP for season after season for obviously overpowered attributes, but then they'll turn around and ruin other classes in PvE for 'PvP balance'. I may be overexagerating a bit with the ruin part, but you get my point.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Flex » Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:24 am

Tev wrote:You know, for the PvP issues, that could easily be solved by tying a good portion of damage that tanks do to getting hit or directly attacked.


Sounds like Vengeance.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Tev » Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:33 am

Flex wrote:
Tev wrote:You know, for the PvP issues, that could easily be solved by tying a good portion of damage that tanks do to getting hit or directly attacked.


Sounds like Vengeance.

Read more of my post, you'll see I was referring to abilities that activate on damage taken/attacks directed on the tank, not a stacking damage buff.
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