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Tying Vengeance to Expertise

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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Shoju » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:44 pm

theckhd wrote:
Shoju wrote:As I admitted in the other thread, it is really complexity for complexities sake. It is. I see that. I hate the very notion of complexity for complexities sake, but I can't see another way to "make threat matter" while making "Threat stats more attractive" unless you just cut vengeance by approximately 35-40%.


Except that complexity for complexity's sake isn't what they're trying to do. Consider what your solution does:

1) Adjusts the threat ceiling to be low enough that a tank can't hold threat without a little expertise
2) Gives the tank a token amount via a Glyph (optional, also note that it would have to change from GoSoT to GoRighteousFury)
3) Makes expertise increase TPS in a fashion such that the player can hold threat with "sufficient" expertise.

That's not significantly different than the vastly easier solution I proposed - taking the current Vengeance cap and lowering it significantly. You will still need "enough" expertise or hit to maintain reasonable threat in my version.

In addition, your version opens up the possibility of really bad tanks massively overcompensating for their threat by stacking expertise to abuse the nonlinear scaling, possibly to the point that they could hold threat with just Crusader Strike. I don't think that ceiling should be attainable, because it doesn't send the right message. If you can't manage a simple rotation, you should lose threat - that tells you "ur doin it wrong lol." If you can overcome that very basic error by changing your gearing, you're not going to learn anything.



I agree 100%. The problem is, It doesn't seem like blizzard agrees with a simple solution. They feel the need to "tie in" threat stats to something. And if they are bent on tying it in, I don't want them touching my survivability. Of all the stupid changes they could make, that added level of RNG would just be the straw for me.

I too, never felt like threat was some "ZOMG I'm going to lose threat" thing that other people did. I always attributed it to a lower than standard DPS average in my guild.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Sonic » Sat Mar 26, 2011 12:38 am

The idea is interesting but you guys need to realize you effectivly screw over 10-70. If i remember, wasn't expertise introduced late BC raiding? There's very little if nothing on it while leveling. You'd pratically shutoff vengance till your at end game. Most tanks aren't going to have exp while leveling. You'd be depandant on racials, talents and the glyph and its very little.

And before someone points it out, no you don't really need vengance while leveling. But why lock out something you obtain at 10 till your near the level cap?

Vengance needs to be handled by itself. As it was my understanding when the mechanic was introduced. It has knobs that can be adjusted. HP%, AP%, decay rate. Don't see why they simply can't adjust those as needed so it scales better. I mean wasn't that the whole point of it?
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Aubade » Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:55 am

Sonic wrote:The idea is interesting but you guys need to realize you effectivly screw over 10-70. If i remember, wasn't expertise introduced late BC raiding? There's very little if nothing on it while leveling. You'd pratically shutoff vengance till your at end game. Most tanks aren't going to have exp while leveling. You'd be depandant on racials, talents and the glyph and its very little.

And before someone points it out, no you don't really need vengance while leveling. But why lock out something you obtain at 10 till your near the level cap?

Vengance needs to be handled by itself. As it was my understanding when the mechanic was introduced. It has knobs that can be adjusted. HP%, AP%, decay rate. Don't see why they simply can't adjust those as needed so it scales better. I mean wasn't that the whole point of it?


The issue here isn't vengance, it scales fine. The issue here is threat stats being completely void of use for tanks.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Malthrax » Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:43 am

Aubade wrote:
Sonic wrote:The idea is interesting but you guys need to realize you effectivly screw over 10-70. If i remember, wasn't expertise introduced late BC raiding? There's very little if nothing on it while leveling. You'd pratically shutoff vengance till your at end game. Most tanks aren't going to have exp while leveling. You'd be depandant on racials, talents and the glyph and its very little.

And before someone points it out, no you don't really need vengance while leveling. But why lock out something you obtain at 10 till your near the level cap?

Vengance needs to be handled by itself. As it was my understanding when the mechanic was introduced. It has knobs that can be adjusted. HP%, AP%, decay rate. Don't see why they simply can't adjust those as needed so it scales better. I mean wasn't that the whole point of it?


The issue here isn't vengance, it scales fine. The issue here is threat stats being completely void of use for tanks.


So ratchet back Vengeance a little bit, and give tanks some talents that make use of threat stats, so our TPS is tied in more to our actual DPS instead of the "free gift" they have right now.

And if DPS has to sit on their hands for a few moments so as not to rip threat off the tank - TO FUGGIN BAD. That's part of their job. Just because someone can, theoretically, do 9000kDPS (or whatever) burst doesn't mean s/he has to do that right out of the gate.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby yappo » Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:58 am

If you want to tie hit/expertize to vengenace, then at least aim for the simple and elegant solutions.

Missing an attack deduct's a sizable chunk from your current vengeance. What mathematical model used for doing this is less interesting than actually penalizing the tank for missing an attack.

A solution based on actual misses is simpler because it doesn't care specifically about either of the two threat stats.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Dantriges » Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:15 am

theckhd wrote:There really never was this fabled "tank threat crisis" that everyone seems to accept as fact, at least not for paladins. And judging by the 10-man ICC runs I did on my undergeared warrior alt, it wasn't there for warriors either.


Ah you mean the serious ICC DPS problems "Can´t hit in the instant the mob appears crisis" and the "Can´t find my threat dump problem? :roll:
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Amirya » Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:11 am

Dantriges wrote:Ah you mean the serious ICC DPS problems "Can´t hit in the instant the mob appears crisis" and the "Can´t find my threat dump problem? :roll:

FWIW, my experience as an ICC tank is the same as Theck's. I never had any threat issues (this only became an issue when I was supposed to be the "offtank" and the main tank couldn't keep aggro off me) - in fact, on tank swap fights in 10-man, we found it was easier if I stepped away from the boss in question for about 5 seconds while the co-tank went to town building threat (this was not an issue in 25-man, however).
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby yappo » Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:15 pm

Amirya wrote:
Dantriges wrote:Ah you mean the serious ICC DPS problems "Can´t hit in the instant the mob appears crisis" and the "Can´t find my threat dump problem? :roll:

FWIW, my experience as an ICC tank is the same as Theck's. I never had any threat issues (this only became an issue when I was supposed to be the "offtank" and the main tank couldn't keep aggro off me) - in fact, on tank swap fights in 10-man, we found it was easier if I stepped away from the boss in question for about 5 seconds while the co-tank went to town building threat (this was not an issue in 25-man, however).


I did run into trouble, but that was mainly* a gearing issue. Never getting past 264 gear (gunship HC never dropped anything for my main tank) I initially ran into acute problems keeping 25-man hc geared alts behind me during the pugs I ran.

Said problems melted away as a result of the arguments here about too much stamina for raiding ICC normals with absurd zone-bonuses making tank-deaths a non-issue. However, slow agility weapons, capping hit and expertize as well as sniping specific slots with dps-gear really shouldn't be the proper way of doing things even if they worked.

* The huge zone-buffs allowed dps to stand in fire, thus further inflating their numbers, but I still believe this to have been a rather minor increase for dps-threat.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Dantriges » Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:32 pm

It probably depended on the kind of DPS you were running with.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Meloree » Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:45 pm

Dantriges wrote:It probably depended on the kind of DPS you were running with.


I ran with some of the highest output DPS around in ICC. We had tons of people who had world top 10 parses for their class. I'm telling you, the tank threat crisis did not actually exist.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Blackharon » Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:55 am

Meloree wrote:
Dantriges wrote:It probably depended on the kind of DPS you were running with.


I ran with some of the highest output DPS around in ICC. We had tons of people who had world top 10 parses for their class. I'm telling you, the tank threat crisis did not actually exist for competent tanks.


Fixed. I ran with some real gems in Wrath (and Cata) on my baby lock that thought aggro was something that happened only from auto attacks.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Malthrax » Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:08 am

[quote="Blackharon]Fixed. I ran with some real gems in Wrath (and Cata) on my baby lock that thought aggro was something that happened only from auto attacks.[/quote]
That's not something that can be fixed with mechanics, gearing, or talent-tweaking, without completely jacking over the NON-incompetent people.

Can't fix Stupid (or ignorant-but-doesn't-care-to-learn, either)
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Jeremoot » Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:32 am

Going to have to agree with threat not being an issue throughout WotLK. With no hit, and only the expertise from the glyph, I was consistently over 20k TPS on bosses when the buff reached 30%. I also clearly remember hitting 30k burst with AW on LK. Which was plenty to hold off our full heroic geared fury warrior which IIRC was doing something around 18-20k at the time.

Unless of course you were blood sapped. :|
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Malthrax » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:21 pm

Jeremoot wrote:Unless of course you were blood sapped. :|

*chortle*

Yeah, we had one this DPS warrior who died on pretty much every trash pull in the Blood Quarter. I'm sure there was a "right" way to handle those pulls, but... this was fun, too.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Dantriges » Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:44 pm

I didn´t mean the average DPS of te guys. But there is some difference between DPS who spec into threat reduce, use their aggro wipes and the tools I ran around with at this time.

Like the hunter who mded consistently on the offtank during Sindragosa hardmode because he couldn´t be bothered to switch. The hunter who showed me something I didn´t knew. You can MD on totems. It was really fun watching the hunters md anything but the tanks or nothing at all.
The DK who specced no threat reduce, attacked every mob, not caring if the tank was actually there or not, sitting on full rune power and active runes, telling the rage starved warrior that he could do more threat tank specced (yeah sure hitting IT over and over is a measure of skill). Using a threat dump was considered waste of a gcd in the DPS roster but attacking an add spawn during the LK encounter with all cds active assoon as it spawned and the tank had only time for one hit was considered fine play, don´t ask for an MD then, please.

So well I meant competent DPS, who actually knew what they were doing instead of doing their priority system posted on EJ over and over or just fooling around. You had no threat problem if DPS skill=gear, you had some if DPS gear > skill. But silly me, must be me not doing my rotation properly.
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