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GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:24 pm

c'mon sabin, it's all in good fun =P
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Chicken » Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:08 am

Random thought: What if damage reduction cooldowns also resulted in a threat reduction? Similar to the old Glyph of Hand of Salvation.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Tev » Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:28 am

This might be better in a new thread, but seems to fit well here. Ghostcrawler brought up a 'watercooler discussion' about stats on gear, and the decision of if they want to keep things where they are at, consolidate stats so gear pieces can be used by more classes (i.e. DPS gear would be used for tanking, with stats like hit => dodge, haste => parry, and so on), or create pieces of gear for each and ever spec (Warlock Affliction pants again???!!! I need the Mage Fire pants!!!)

That said, it would be interesting to see where they would go woth the gear consolidation route. I would be against the gear for every spec route, we had that in vanilla and I still remember Molten Core, week after week, f#$@ Warlock and Druid gear.... Had lock and druid alts better geared than mains thanks to s@#$$y RNG drops. My 2 copper on it.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:46 am

This 'is' the thread for that watercooler discussion =P

Or rather a continuation since this was done after the first watercooler discussion that came up weeks back
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Meloree » Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:56 am

Chicken wrote:Random thought: What if damage reduction cooldowns also resulted in a threat reduction? Similar to the old Glyph of Hand of Salvation.


I'm not sure how well that fits in with the "use cooldown or die" setup on so many fights. I know we're pushing out a ton of TPS, but if you lose 20% of your threat every minute or so due to cooldown use, you'll quickly be behind.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Chicken » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:04 pm

Meloree wrote:
Chicken wrote:Random thought: What if damage reduction cooldowns also resulted in a threat reduction? Similar to the old Glyph of Hand of Salvation.


I'm not sure how well that fits in with the "use cooldown or die" setup on so many fights. I know we're pushing out a ton of TPS, but if you lose 20% of your threat every minute or so due to cooldown use, you'll quickly be behind.
Good point. Particularly bad on heroic Chimaeron where Feud phase requires cooldown use after tank swap. Not much use if cooldowns cause Chimaeron to go back to your old tank!

So alternative idea in the same direction: Damage reduction cooldowns reduce threat generation for duration. Still reduces overall threat, but means the effect isn't going to get stronger and stronger as the encounter progresses and causes less issues with tank swaps.

Also as clarification, I'm playing with these random ideas as alternatives to the "Oh your block missed" idea of making expertise/hit more attractive for tanks.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby inthedrops » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:33 pm

<walks past the water cooler overhearing bits and pieces>

"How bout they just tune Vengeance better?"

<continues walking by>
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby masterpoobaa » Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:51 pm

Thats just crazy talk inthedrops!
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Passionario » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:36 pm

inthedrops wrote:<walks past the water cooler overhearing bits and pieces>

"How bout they just tune Vengeance better?"

<continues walking by>

"Even if we made threat really hard to maintain, tanks would probably still just stack survival stats and get frustrated when they lost aggro."- GC

And he's probably right, too.

Tev wrote:This might be better in a new thread, but seems to fit well here. Ghostcrawler brought up a 'watercooler discussion' about stats on gear, and the decision of if they want to keep things where they are at, consolidate stats so gear pieces can be used by more classes (i.e. DPS gear would be used for tanking, with stats like hit => dodge, haste => parry, and so on), or create pieces of gear for each and ever spec (Warlock Affliction pants again???!!! I need the Mage Fire pants!!!)

That said, it would be interesting to see where they would go woth the gear consolidation route. I would be against the gear for every spec route, we had that in vanilla and I still remember Molten Core, week after week, f#$@ Warlock and Druid gear.... Had lock and druid alts better geared than mains thanks to s@#$$y RNG drops. My 2 copper on it.


Personally, I wouldn't mind (or be surprised) if they eventually went via consolidation path. As Mastery has successfully demonstrated, it is perfectly possible for a single stat to do 30 different things depending on one's spec. It is not unreasonable if other stats could fulfill multiple roles, as well (though perhaps not quite on the same scale).
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Dantriges » Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:48 am

Passionario wrote:"Even if we made threat really hard to maintain, tanks would probably still just stack survival stats and get frustrated when they lost aggro."- GC

And he's probably right, too.


Yes wit the whole DPS community going berserk.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Hokahey » Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:19 am

I had a thought over the weekend that there are some other ways they could make tank gearing more "interesting" without pushing tanks to start taking threat stats.

1) They could make the Block rating gained through Mastery have diminishing returns. Naturally, this only applies to Paladins and Warriors, which makes it problematic in the concern of overall tank balance.

2) They could make Armor "stackable" again. This was alluded to in GCs post.

On the second one, the question is how. Part of the reason no one stacks armor now is that you really can't in any meaningful way. One cloak enchant, one lvl 85 armor trinket (that I can think of), and an Engineer tinker for gloves (If I'm forgetting something, please let me know). You could certainly provide items with "bonus armor", you can provide a new host of enchants for lvl 85, or perhaps include some more armor trinkets. You could even make +Armor gems if you want. These would all work to a degree.

However, I had an idea which I felt was fairly ingenious at the time: You could make it possible for people to reforge to put more armor on items. For balance reasons, you wouldn't want to allow people to reforge away from armor into other stats. DPS and Healers would do this as a matter of course, and classes with heavier armor types would have more to work with. Naturally, you wouldn't want percentage armor bonuses from gems or class abilities to apply to the reforged armor.

Of course, in its current state, I don't think the equivalent ilevel of armor is anywhere near competitive with Mastery for Warriors or Paladins, so a buff to the itemization cost of armor may be necessary to make even this worthwhile. I may be mistaken on that.

It was just a thought I had.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Passionario » Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:42 am

Dantriges wrote:
Passionario wrote:"Even if we made threat really hard to maintain, tanks would probably still just stack survival stats and get frustrated when they lost aggro."- GC

And he's probably right, too.


Yes wit the whole DPS community going berserk.

According to this thread and its "Tying Exp to Vengeance?" counterpart, the general consensus is that the appropriate response to any complaints from members of DPS community is to let the whiny meter-whoring bitches pull aggro and die.

If they complain again, kick them. In the groin.
With your armored dodge/parry boot that has 0 expertise and hit.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Aubade » Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:52 am

Passionario wrote:According to this thread and its "Tying Exp to Vengeance?" counterpart, the general consensus is that the appropriate response to any complaints from members of DPS community is to let the whiny meter-whoring bitches pull aggro and die.

If they complain again, kick them. In the groin.
With your armored dodge/parry boot that has 0 expertise and hit.


I disagree.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Passionario » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:04 am

Aubade wrote:I disagree.

Heretic. :P
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Aubade » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:07 am

Passionario wrote:
Aubade wrote:I disagree.

Heretic. :P


If threat were to get to levels where dps was actually in danger of pulling, i'd throw on more threat stats. DPS plays just as important a job as a tank, it's just "easier" to do. If we can't pull threat they can't do their job.
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