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GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:55 am

I'm just pissed off that blizz is just passing the buck to us.

-Blizz designs content
-Players figure out a gearing strat to beat content
-Blizz doesn't like gearing strat because it's ramifications (moving away from hit/exp and into dodge/parry/mastery means we'll reach the unhittable really soon)
-Blizz decides to "ask" players ways to make hit/exp more attractive in order to delay reaching the unhittable threshold.
-Blizz will implement "Deathwing Radiance/Heat exhaustion" just like Theckd predicted anyways.

If I wanted to roll the dice twice, one to put my shield in a block position, and one to see how effective my block was, I'd go play good ol' fashioned D&D at the mall.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:05 pm

Klaudandus wrote:I'm just pissed off that blizz is just passing the buck to us.

How so?
-Blizz designs content
-Players figure out a gearing strat to beat content
-Blizz doesn't like gearing strat because it's ramifications (moving away from hit/exp and into dodge/parry/mastery means we'll reach the unhittable really soon)

GC said he doesn't mind if we're blocking every hit.
-Blizz decides to "ask" players ways to make hit/exp more attractive in order to delay reaching the unhittable threshold.

I find this very suspicious as Blizzard never asks players to design anything. If he says "we're looking for ways to" that doesn't mean he is looking for the community to design things for him.

-Blizz will implement "Deathwing Radiance/Heat exhaustion" just like Theckd predicted anyways.

Maybe, but at this point signs point to no I think. Given that block capping is not something they currently think is bad.
If I wanted to roll the dice twice, one to put my shield in a block position, and one to see how effective my block was, I'd go play good ol' fashioned D&D at the mall.

Geez what edition had THAT? I got into D&D with 3.0 so that seems rather ridiculous to me :x
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Hokahey » Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:43 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:-Blizz will implement "Deathwing Radiance/Heat exhaustion" just like Theckd predicted anyways.

Maybe, but at this point signs point to no I think. Given that block capping is not something they currently think is bad.


It was my impression that the concern that prompted both the prior Avoidance nerfs was that overall tank avoidance was far too high, and it limited their options in encounter design. As far as I could tell, Paladins achieving "Block-cap"/"Unhittable" with gear had relatively little to do with it.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Skye1013 » Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:59 am

Sabindeus wrote:
If I wanted to roll the dice twice, one to put my shield in a block position, and one to see how effective my block was, I'd go play good ol' fashioned D&D at the mall.

Geez what edition had THAT? I got into D&D with 3.0 so that seems rather ridiculous to me :x

I don't recall ever having to roll to block/see how effective a block was, most of the rolls were from the attacker (exceptions being special abilities/quickened spells/etc. used to counter certain attacks.) Though from what I've heard, THACO (AD&D {"D&D 2.0" I believe}) was a pretty horrible system if you didn't enjoy math (and even if you did, you might still not have enjoyed it.)

Anywho, I think before we determine that the sky is falling, we should at least see what their plans are to make us WANT to use hit/exp. Right now everything is speculation, since even Blizz doesn't appear to be sure of what they want to do.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Tev » Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:49 am

If/when they tack on tanking skill to hit/exp, I hope it will go the mitigation/EH route and not the avoidance route, or I think we will be seeing a Deathwell Heat-Radiant Exhaustion at some point. Having hit/exp increase health/armor/mastery may be the best route for them to go with this.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby theckhd » Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:17 am

Skye1013 wrote:I don't recall ever having to roll to block/see how effective a block was, most of the rolls were from the attacker (exceptions being special abilities/quickened spells/etc. used to counter certain attacks.) Though from what I've heard, THACO (AD&D {"D&D 2.0" I believe}) was a pretty horrible system if you didn't enjoy math (and even if you did, you might still not have enjoyed it.)

There was nothing wrong with THAC0. :P

But I do agree that 3rd Edition's system was a lot simpler and clearer, which made for a smoother RPG.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:23 am

Sabindeus wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:I'm just pissed off that blizz is just passing the buck to us.

How so?
-Blizz designs content
-Players figure out a gearing strat to beat content
-Blizz doesn't like gearing strat because it's ramifications (moving away from hit/exp and into dodge/parry/mastery means we'll reach the unhittable really soon)

GC said he doesn't mind if we're blocking every hit.
-Blizz decides to "ask" players ways to make hit/exp more attractive in order to delay reaching the unhittable threshold.

I find this very suspicious as Blizzard never asks players to design anything. If he says "we're looking for ways to" that doesn't mean he is looking for the community to design things for him.

-Blizz will implement "Deathwing Radiance/Heat exhaustion" just like Theckd predicted anyways.

Maybe, but at this point signs point to no I think. Given that block capping is not something they currently think is bad.
If I wanted to roll the dice twice, one to put my shield in a block position, and one to see how effective my block was, I'd go play good ol' fashioned D&D at the mall.

Geez what edition had THAT? I got into D&D with 3.0 so that seems rather ridiculous to me :x


I admit I was going for on a hyperbole.

On my defense, I could have said "tank avoidance is getting too high across all classes" rather than mention the unhitability of paladin/warriors. But the point still remains, avoidance stats can only go up and up as new ilvl gear is released --- and this is something I complained about in the first place on other threads!

Like I said, once tanks resolve for "x" to defeat the current content, other tanks will gravitate automatically towards that configuration as well, even if Blizz doesn't like the gearing paradigm they used.

Also, notice how I put quotation marks around the "ask" -- GC is not really asking, but he's listening to the feedback to the idea in the first place.

I still don't like the double dice-roll system if they actually go for hit/exp affecting how effective our cooldowns are.

And granted, I've never played table D&D in the first place, but some friends do, and they tell me they have to roll for just about everything (I guess their gamemaster is an ass)... a game I'd prolly show up to half drunk, a case of beer in hand and with a character called Bobba Fett.

My guess is, that blizz will have to change how they itemize the tanking gear in the first place, no dodge/parry gear anymore, a limited number of dodge/mast and parry/mast and an increase of dodge/hit, dodge/exp, parrry/hit, parry/exp.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:00 am

Klaudandus wrote:And granted, I've never played table D&D in the first place, but some friends do, and they tell me they have to roll for just about everything (I guess their gamemaster is an ass)... a game I'd prolly show up to half drunk, a case of beer in hand and with a character called Bobba Fett.

Watch it pal. We have some D&D snobs in the community. (me)
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby lythac » Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:09 am

Closest I ever got to D&D was Baldur's Gate.

Wonder if my copy will work on Windows 7.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Skye1013 » Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:07 am

Most of the GMs I've experienced only force die rolls if there is a questionable outcome... if you have all +charisma gear, 20+ skill points in bluff and just quaffed a glibness potion... chances are, no matter what you just told someone, they believed it, so the die roll isn't as necessary. As opposed to if you only put 4 points in bluff, have all your stats in strength and you're trying to lie to an old monk.

Now, combat tends to take forever because of you roll to determine if you hit the target, then roll more die to determine the amount of damage done or spell effects that apply. The defending player generally only has to supply what their Armor Class (AC) is, and any fort/reflex/will saves may need to be rolled against spell effects (or massive damage, if that rule is being followed.)

Sorry for the D&D nerddom, but I'm having withdrawals, and this convo just sort of caused it to explode :D.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Flex » Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:49 am

Aanar wrote:Here's my perspecitive from someone with all four healers @85 and 3 of the tank classes @85 (warrior is only 82). Granted, I don't raid much and am not an expert on any of them.

I'm not sure why people seem to think healer gearing is in such a better place.


Probably because there are various caps (haste for extra hot ticks, spirit) you can mess around with while tanking gear has none, more will always be good.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:03 am

Sabindeus wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:And granted, I've never played table D&D in the first place, but some friends do, and they tell me they have to roll for just about everything (I guess their gamemaster is an ass)... a game I'd prolly show up to half drunk, a case of beer in hand and with a character called Bobba Fett.

Watch it pal. We have some D&D snobs in the community. (me)


This video is for you then: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 005637835# (a bit NSFW)
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Aanar » Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:59 am

Flex wrote:
Aanar wrote:I'm not sure why people seem to think healer gearing is in such a better place.


Probably because there are various caps (haste for extra hot ticks, spirit) you can mess around with while tanking gear has none, more will always be good.



True, though I haven't run into a situation where a hot tick haste breakpoint affected gear choice / reforging. You always look for haste gear and reforge to haste anyway. I guess if it was the difference between reaching a cap, you might tank a Haste/Crit piece over a Spirit/Crit one.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Saltycracker » Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:22 pm

Trying to steer things in a productive direction, I thought of a couple ideas last night as I was trying to get to sleep. Here is what I posted on GC's blog post from my phone:

I'm not a fan of mechanics like inverse vengeance that have bosses do less damage, or convert hit or expertise into mitigation, because that seems very passive and removes some of the nuance and complexity that a tank takes on as they gear for a raid or an encounter. Vengeance helps tanks gear to survive without needing to fight their raid for threat by using less ideal stats like hit and dodge.

I propose something a little more active for tanks to interact with hit and expertise. Being a paladin tank, I am lamenting the long cooldown that word of glory will be getting next patch. What if when one of your white hits connects with he boss, or a target, your cooldown on WOG is shortened by a second, or if not WOG some other cooldown like divine protection or goak. This way you can give tanks an active choice whether to worry about hit/expertise without lumping it into some other mitigation stat as a passive choice.

I am not sure if this interaction is the best for other tank classes, but it would be a good way for Pallies to invest in hit/expertise.


So yea, basically tie your white hits to some kind of buff or cooldown reduction. I know the code exists, because of how Art of War works. If you don't have any hit or expertise, your white hits will be ~75% of a tank that does gear for these stats. A developer could do a lot of fun/crazy things with that as well. If there was some WoG reduction, a tankadin could then push 8-10 seconds off the cooldown with just enough time to get 3HP again. It would be something that a tank could actually play around with rather than having EJ tell you "Thou shalt be hit capped nub".

The Ulduar Blade Ward enchant also came to mind. Every time you connect with a white hit in a boss, you gain a stacking buff that increases your block/dodge/parry (Warriors&Pallies/Bears/DKs) chance by 1%. Once you block/dodge/parry the buff gets reset back to 0. Something like that.

Converting hit/expertise into mitigation stats is just a dumb idea, and like someone said before we can already do this vie reforging. A straight conversion would allow us to double dip up to a point, but not for any visible gain as Vengeance pretty much does our threat for us as long as we can manage half a faceroll.

Just food for thought.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:46 pm

Klaudandus wrote:This video is for you then: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 005637835# (a bit NSFW)


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