GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby tlitp » Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:22 pm

Passionario wrote:On other hand, a shining, armored, almost invulnerable figure with righteousness emanating from every orifice, who stands at the forefront of the invading force, shouting orders and getting directly in the boss's face is clearly a leader. So instead of slashing and clawing his way through endless rank-and-file, the boss decides to decapitate the opposing army by killing its leader(s), forcing an immediate rout.

One of the first things that you learn as a Rogue is to ignore decoys. If it's shiny, it's not mine for taking. You wouldn't believe how effective this basic principle proved to be during the mayhem of Vanilla's wPVP encounters.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Passionario » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:15 am

tlitp wrote:
Passionario wrote:On other hand, a shining, armored, almost invulnerable figure with righteousness emanating from every orifice, who stands at the forefront of the invading force, shouting orders and getting directly in the boss's face is clearly a leader. So instead of slashing and clawing his way through endless rank-and-file, the boss decides to decapitate the opposing army by killing its leader(s), forcing an immediate rout.

One of the first things that you learn as a Rogue is to ignore decoys. If it's shiny, it's not mine for taking. You wouldn't believe how effective this basic principle proved to be during the mayhem of Vanilla's wPVP encounters.

It is no coincidence that those few raid bosses who can be classified as Rogues (Moroes, Veras Darkshadow) have no qualms about switching to targets other than the main tank.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Malthrax » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:30 pm

Passionario wrote:If a DPSer or healer dies, this does not mean an immediate wipe. If a tank dies, however, the raid will soon follow suit. From a boss's perspective, this means that non-tanking raid members are essentially squishy faceless mooks: yes, it's easy to kill one, but another will immediately step into the breach.

On other hand, a shining, armored, almost invulnerable figure with righteousness emanating from every orifice, who stands at the forefront of the invading force, shouting orders and getting directly in the boss's face is clearly a leader. So instead of slashing and clawing his way through endless rank-and-file, the boss decides to decapitate the opposing army by killing its leader(s), forcing an immediate rout.


And the most expedient route to eliminating the "almost invulnerable figure with righteousness emanating from every orifice ... who ... is clearly a leader" is to punch the cloth-wearing glowy-handed healer propping him up.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... MedicFirst
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:53 pm

But you see, priests have urinals in their shoulders, no one wants to touch a priest out of fear of getting splashed with orc/dwarven piss -- at least that's what whisper into the bosses' ears as we tank them.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Passionario » Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:57 am

*shifts to Devil's Advocate form*

What if the current Vengeance-based threat model was actually the intended and desired outcome, and not an abominable oversight as the forum consensus would have us believe?

Back in the day, threat generation mattered. At the start of the pull, the entire raid had to "wait for 5 Sunders" before firing off the first shot, for the fear of pulling aggro. Throughout the rest of the fight, the raid was 'threatcapped' by MT. It gave the tanks something else to gear for other than survival, and forced the DPSers to do something other than mindlessly push their "I win" button.

So why did Blizzard have to ruin this glorious thing with their crude Vengeance mechanic?

Why, for the same reason why they 'ruined' other wonders of that bygone age. Like, say, hybrid tax, which required players and raid leaders to make an interesting choice between performance and versatility. Or the 8-debuff limit that made the game more interesting by providing an advantage to organized raids that coordinated their debuff usage. Or OO5SR regeneration model that made both healers and DPS casters do something other than mindlessly push their "I win" button (namely, stand around doing nothing while their mana trickled back).

Maybe it's time to stop pining for the glory days of Vanilla and accept the new paradigm. The existence of Vengeance and the tone of GC's post are both clear indicators that Blizzard has no intention of bringing the old threatcapping back, at least as a persistent core feature (occasional encounter-specific threat management via Hodir-style power zones, on other hand, is fair game). Just as DPS casters shouldn't run OOM during the course of an ordinary raid encounter unless they're doing something drastically wrong (even if they don't specifically gear for Spirit), tanks shouldn't run out of aggro unless they make a major mistake (even if they don't specifically gear for hit/expertise).

----------------------------------------------------

With that in mind, GC's idea that hit and expertise should be made attractive for tanks by boosting their survivability (rather than threat generation) makes perfect sense. The particular implementation of giving short-duration cooldowns a chance to miss or be avoided has obvious flaws, but it is not the only one possible - there are plenty of alternative options, from making +Hit reduce "panic button" cooldowns to giving extra armor based on one's Expertise.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Hokahey » Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:24 am

Passionario wrote:*shifts to Devil's Advocate form*

What if the current Vengeance-based threat model was actually the intended and desired outcome, and not an abominable oversight as the forum consensus would have us believe?



Devil's advocate apparently has been reading my mind. I think the current threat model is immensely superior to those of the Vanilla, BC, and Wrath eras, and I don't think Vengeance is "broken" at all.

That being said, I understand that flies in the face of the general consensus both here and on the official forums, so I tend to keep mum on the topic.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Tev » Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:09 am

If that was their desire for the current model, it feels like they aren't exactly happy with where it currently stands (hense the proposed changes to make hit and expertise more attractive). I personally like hit and expertise, and think it would be a good thing if they could make reforging into them not be a move that gimps you on progression content.

Of coarse with the current model of venegence, there is little to no point in getting hit/exp as it's not needed, better to spec full survival and blame anyone pulling threat from the tank for jumping the gun on the pull (like the time in BWL when we had a mage AP/PoM Pyro Chromaggus as his opening move and wipe the raid... fastest wipe ever). Threat should matter, but not be a chore, if tanks can sustain a 30% threat lead, as opposed to the current... 100%? lead, I think that is a good spot.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Passionario » Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:38 am

Tev wrote:If that was their desire for the current model, it feels like they aren't exactly happy with where it currently stands (hense the proposed changes to make hit and expertise more attractive).


As far as threat model is concerned, they seem to be quite happy (incoming Druid AoE fixes notwithstanding).

What they're looking to address now is not Vengeance itself, but, rather, its unwanted side effect: the fact that tanks now have fewer interesting and beneficial item stats to choose from, in comparison to healers and DPSers.

There are three ways to do this:

A) Give stats like +Hit or Expertise extra tank-specific effects to make them relevant to tanks' primary task (namely, Survival).
B) Introduce (or reintroduce) new stats that would boost Survival.
C) Saddle tanks with additional important tasks beyond Survival (for example, chasing threat or handling interrupts), and make them require stats like +Hit or Expertise in order to succeed at these tasks.

As GC's post indicates, they currently lean towards Solution A, are considering Solution B (by decoupling armor and Stam from ilvl, essentially bringing "extra armor" and "extra Stam" back as viable tank stats), and are actively moving away from Solution C - probably because it would cause more problems than it would solve.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Téuntjûh » Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:50 am

Interupting can't miss anymore in the next patch.
An other reason why not to take any hit.
Sometimes i don't understand what blizzard wants
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Passionario » Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:12 am

Téuntjûh wrote:Sometimes i don't understand what blizzard wants


Blizzard wants tanks to gear for survival. Not for interrupting, or taunting, or threat generation - these things should automatically succeed as long as you're pushing the right buttons at the right time.

However, gearing for survival is boring when you have only three (or, if you're a druid, two) stats to choose from. Hence, GC's new initiative.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Tev » Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:18 am

Passionario wrote:
Tev wrote:If that was their desire for the current model, it feels like they aren't exactly happy with where it currently stands (hense the proposed changes to make hit and expertise more attractive).


As far as threat model is concerned, they seem to be quite happy (incoming Druid AoE fixes notwithstanding).

What they're looking to address now is not Vengeance itself, but, rather, its unwanted side effect: the fact that tanks now have fewer interesting and beneficial item stats to choose from, in comparison to healers and DPSers.

There are three ways to do this:

A) Give stats like +Hit or Expertise extra tank-specific effects to make them relevant to tanks' primary task (namely, Survival).
B) Introduce (or reintroduce) new stats that would boost Survival.
C) Saddle tanks with additional important tasks beyond Survival (for example, chasing threat or handling interrupts), and make them require stats like +Hit or Expertise in order to succeed at these tasks.

As GC's post indicates, they currently lean towards Solution A, are considering Solution B (by decoupling armor and Stam from ilvl, essentially bringing "extra armor" and "extra Stam" back as viable tank stats), and are actively moving away from Solution C - probably because it would cause more problems than it would solve.


In Regards to A, the question is how much survival will they tie into hit/exp? Will it make those stats worth it in a pure progression model (where you are focusing purely on survival), or will it be like Str to Parry where your not going to give it a second thought?

In regards to the extra stam/armor model, that might be a requirement, otherwise they potentially run in to the expansion patch issues of too much avoidance again, requiring yet another implimentation of Sunwell Radiance. Take some of the avoidance stats and pump it into armor/stam and they can hopefully avoid that, but who knows for sure. Deathwings Radiance has a humorous ring to it. But it does seem the more I look at it that their issue is the stat point distribution at higher levels of gear. They are looking for places to bleed away stat points from pure avoidance so they don't have to make bosses that can ignore huge chunks of avoidance.

Makes me wonder is hit/exp will contribute more to the mitigation end of tank stats than avoidance.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:59 am

Téuntjûh wrote:Interupting can't miss anymore in the next patch.
An other reason why not to take any hit.
Sometimes i don't understand what blizzard wants


This is a concession to makeups for 10m raiders, specifically for Nef, which requires three short-CD interrupters.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Aanar » Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:21 am

Here's my perspecitive from someone with all four healers @85 and 3 of the tank classes @85 (warrior is only 82). Granted, I don't raid much and am not an expert on any of them.

I'm not sure why people seem to think healer gearing is in such a better place. There's fewer stats that come on our gear (that differ in the same ilvl): 4 (spi, haste, mast, crit) vs 5 for plate tanks (mast, dodge, parry, exp, hit). Just like exp and hit are the least wanted, crit is dead last for every heal spec I'm familiar with. I guess it does at least boost output, vs hit/exp not adding to survival

And some (holy pal, shaman, raid healing druid) have the unfortunate situation of their masteries being relatively weak too. So just like any tank gear that isn't Mast/Parry or Mast/Dodge is 2nd-class, anything that isn't Spi/Haste is 2nd class for healers with the exception of priests and the rare tank healer druid.

I guess there's the arguement of througput vs longevity but you usually will pick something with spirit than something without. Only my priest might consider a haste/mastery (best non-spirit combo) item over a spirit/crit (worst spirit combo) one. Since only one class each uses int plate, int mail, and int spirit their usually aren't too many options either. Plate tanks have more options with agility/mastery items often being pretty good (sometimes BiS) and in some cases can make passable use of DPS gear, for example, the 359 hyjal rep belt mast/crit is better than any 346 blue tank belt).

If you want boring, look at bears. The only dodge you'll get is with reforging or if you grab str gear like the hyjal rep cloak str/mast/dodge. You pretty much reforge for mastery if it doesn't have it, otherwise just reforge everything for dodge. At least plate tanks have better selection of gear with thier best combos (mastery/dodge or master/parry). The best bear gear is mastery/crit>dodge and seems to be a rarer combo.

I think what I'm trying to say is it seems unfair how some specs have pretty close grouping of the stat weights of their secondaries (I know at least a few dps specs are pretty close - maybe 20% spread) versus some specs like progression tanks that weigh secondaries of hit and exp close to 0% the value of say mastery. (And you have healers who value crit at 10% to 30% of spirit.) Close grouping makes gearing much easier albeit less interesting. Wide spreads are just frustrating when they put Master & Crit on your T11 resto druid chest or a given bis item just wont drop.

I'm not sure where the best balance point would be. Maybe the worst secondary 50% as good as the best one?

Having exp and hit contribute to mitigation seems like a good start, but I would like to see them make changes so that the secondary stat weight spread for all specs are more similar.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:26 am

Passionario wrote:
Téuntjûh wrote:Sometimes i don't understand what blizzard wants


Blizzard wants tanks to gear for survival. Not for interrupting, or taunting, or threat generation - these things should automatically succeed as long as you're pushing the right buttons at the right time.

However, gearing for survival is boring when you have only three (or, if you're a druid, two) stats to choose from. Hence, GC's new initiative.


Hit is really losing it's importance as a threat stat for paladins as AS should make up for bad rngs with CS/HotR when it comes to HoPow gen. I'll still gear for 24 exp softcap as I like the threat tho.

But I gotta add this, which is really basically what I barked about already 3 pages down:
Tanks hate RNG by nature, they will try their darnest to minimize the RNG effect on everything -- tying hit/exp to how effective our avoidance/mitigation/defensive cooldowns is bad because it ties one RNG to a 2nd RNG -- its rolling the dice twice since we have to rely on one roll so the next roll is effective

It feels like a Morton's Fork because making hit/expertise too important (seeking to reach for the soft cap) means that you'll me maximizing your chances to win one roll, at the cost of the effectiveness of the second roll.

And the way your encounters are currently designed, which is blizz own fault and not ours, the most effective way for a tank to survive is to go for stam and avoidance at the expense of the threat stats. So it actually feels blizz is passing the bucks to us for going for a gearing paradigm that blizz simply don't agree with, when it was blizz the ones that forced the paradigm itself to happen in order for us to beat the content.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Aanar » Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:40 am

Yeah, in theory, having tanks balance between survivability and threat sounds like it would make gearing interesting, but really just frustrates threat-capped dps and leads to balance problems with things like feign-death, tricks, fade, salvation, etc.

In theory, healers are needing to balance between burst/throughput and longevity, but in reality the way it works out is that more spirit (longevity) lets you favor the higher burst/throughput but lower efficiency spells more than you otherwise would so gearing for "longevity" actually gets you better burst/throughput too.
Last edited by Aanar on Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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