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GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Koatanga » Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:27 pm

I don't think it's a problem if we have the same base DPS. We would trade offensive spells and talents for defensive ones, which would provide the difference.

I really don't think the difference between my DPS and that of a ret pally is how much haste and crit he has. I think it's that he has special abilities that way outshine mine for producing damage. That would remain the same even if we wore the same gear.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:52 pm

theckhd wrote:I don't actually like the "vengeance increases with hit/exp rating" variation for a number of reasons, but I don't want to derail the discussion too much so I'll leave it at that.

<edit> I also don't like the "cooldowns can miss" version, in fact I like that much less.

Yeah but I think they are kind of stuck. If they add regular mitigation to these stats then that just waters down the other stats, because ultimately they aren't going to allow your total mitigation to increase much, or they'll just increase damage to compensate. So, I think that's why they are looking to hook it to things that are a bit more inconsistent.

Frankly, I think they should make threat matter quite a bit more, and just be a lot more proactive about dealing with the scaling of threat as gear levels increase. I thought that was the whole point of vengeance anyhow. I think choices between threat and mitigation are much more interesting than adding even more mitigation stats.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby rodos » Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:52 pm

Levantine wrote:Sorry to crush everyone's hopes and dreams, but base spirit doesn't count towards the spirit->hit conversion talents, only spirit from gear contributes.

This is way off-topic, but are you absolutely certain? I remember once screwing up the reforging on my Ret set because I was doing it in Holy spec and undershot the hit cap due to spi -> hit conversion (and no, none of my Ret gear has spirit on it). I could be imagining it, or I may have messed up in some other way, but that's how I remember it.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Hokahey » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:16 am

theckhd wrote:I don't actually like the "vengeance increases with hit/exp rating" variation for a number of reasons, but I don't want to derail the discussion too much so I'll leave it at that.

<edit> I also don't like the "cooldowns can miss" version, in fact I like that much less.


Agreed. While its great for well-established tanks who already have enough stats to afford to push them around in regular content/5-mans, new and/or entry level tanks could be introduced to a whole new level of suck, as their mitigation is already just barely enough with investing everything into it. Having their survivability further chained to threat stats they can't afford to invest in, or their threat more severely hamstrung than it already is by putting all their eggs in the survival basket, could be crippling.

Even if they did make threat stats attractive enough for tanks to seek out, it doesn't actually change much. Unless something gets buffed or Mastery gets severely nerfed, best practice will probably be to shed avoidance, then Stam (to a certain threshold), then Mastery for Hit/Expertise.

I don't really think tank gearing is all that much more boring than any other role. I get just as excited about things that will help keep me alive while tanking as things that help me do more damage while DPSing, or heal for more or longer while healing. I suppose I may be the exception in this regard.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby PsiVen » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:28 am

I'm really not a fan of any of our survival abilities relying on not being parried, as there's no way to prevent it from happening without going way overboard on expertise. Cooldowns and such being missable is also way too harsh on leveling tanks. Taunts (and soon interrupts) are unmissable for a reason: it's too annoying to have them miss, and it's just as annoying to be forced to hit cap so they don't. As long as that doesn't happen, and our avoidance is compensated for the massive rating dump, I'd love for hit/exp to be important stats to cap.

But really, it doesn't need to be that complicated. Give us direct avoidance parallels: talents that convert 80% of hit rating into dodge, and 80% of expertise rating into parry. Suddenly every tank is interested in reaching the hit/dodge cap, and has that to consider with their gear choices. It can be more subtle than straight rating dumps to keep stats more interesting, but it shouldn't be in the form of further penalties for not being capped.

Honestly, I don't think tank gearing is that uninteresting. It's similar enough to everyone else's... What I hate is that I *want* stats that will improve my quality of life, but cannot have them because they're bad. It's the same trap as those cool/fun talents that get skipped in raiding specs because they're not optimal.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Darielle » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:08 am

Not precisely stats, but rather gearing paradigms. Arianne put it much better earlier in this thread.

In a situation where, as a group, you're supposed to resolve for x for the less amount of effort, once that combination is found, it spreads like wildfire --- the trend, it seems, as I am not a hardmore hardcore raider, is you move away from hit/exp and push for stam/avoidance, which has always really been the case, to be honest... but on the regular content, you could go for a balanced gearing set and be completely effective.

It's really not my fault that high end guilds, and tanks, move towards stam/avoidance at the expense of everything else if that's what solves X and blizz doesn't like it.

It just happens that next time around, whatever hits us is gonna hit like a truck compared to current content and with the stat inflation, it will continue to happen yet and yet again.

I dunno if I'm rambling too much here, or if you get the gist of my rant -- i really have a bad migraine so I am not being really coherent.


DPS specs have that too. Not only are hit/expertise caps changing with content for dps, some work outside of that. For example, Ferals don't stack hit or expertise, but you have to be prepared to do so if you come across an interrupt situation right now before 4.1. Similarly, Casters get to bounce Hit caps based on the level of what the most important thing is, and they get to gear around things like Haste Plateous for HoT ticks or DoT ticks and so on. Some specs need to balance a certain amount of X to maintain optimal uptime of Y buff. Healers play the regen-throughput balance.

Tanks really don't juggle any more stats or situations than other roles do.

Aaanyway, I can't ever see them actually considering things like cooldowns tied into hit/expertise. They might (and probably already have plans to) tie small, frequent things (like Block - or Holy Shield), but not the actual big cooldowns. That would just be horrible.

I can't see them doing a straight rating conversion either.

I >can< see them also using boss mechanics to "make" it matter. Remember Malygos and Hodir Hardmode and Vezax having mechanics that involved buffing the damage dealers but not the tank? Or LDW with the threat reduction? That kind of "gimmick" thing. Put that in strategic places and people start looking at how to deal with multiple sets or balanced stats.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Dantriges » Fri Mar 25, 2011 5:02 am

Yeah I assume they tie it more into block. DKs cap hit/exp for deahstrike. Not sure about druids and savage defense.

Thy probably tie it into block, holy shield or so. They can´t tie it into the big cooldowns. First it would be weird. You haven´t hit the phone line to your angel and so he still hangs around in the celestial realm?
Second their encounter design incorporates big telegraphed moves so that you know you should use your bigger cds. Don´t think they want random death just because you don´t have enough hit.

They probably assume that the change to HoPo and a change to amount blocked will be enough for us to care about hit/expertise. Warriors could be hit more severely.

Could be that whatever they will incorporate will be unparryable. Capping expertise to the hardcap would be a bit much.

And I don´t think they will compensate us in mitigation stats for the lost amount. DKs don´t get it and they are now really into "fairness" like the HoPo generation based on hitting the boss.

Ah well it´s not set in stone but up for discussion. Like their big preamble said this is just an outlook into the design process.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Shoju » Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:37 am

theckhd wrote:Vengeance on hit/exp also has a problem, which is that you now have very nonlinear scaling with hit/exp.


A couple things on why I like my idea, and I REALLY would like to have a good discussion about it with you. If we need to make a different thread, or move to PM's, thats fine, but I'm very interested in thsi topic.

My proposal is to just not care about hit rating as a tank. Hit rating caps, is possible to cap and thus, creates another circumstance where the tank is juggling things around a cap (because we will soon be juggling the block cap if they don't change something). By tying Expertise and Vengeance together, you have found a way to make a threat stat matter, made sure that there isn't a "reasonable" cap (getting hard capped on expertise.... whoa that would take a lot at 85), and give a sliding scale for which tanks of differing skill levels can all achieve a similar goal; more threat when needed. Is it a perfect solution? Absolutely not. It is, (to coin a phrase I use when speaking of other mechanics) Complexity for complexities sake. This seems to be what Blizzard wants. They want things to be more complex. They want things to involve more decision making (even though they said otherwise before).

Is the threat scaling linear? No. It is Exponential I guess, as more and more expertise will yield more and more threat. But, Reasonable "moderate" skill level paladins, will be able to find the level where they feel good with their threat, and then are able to just "set it and forget it" like a Ronco Rotisserie.

If it were up to me, We would just cut vengeance 30-40% from where it is, see how it works out, and see if we need to change from there. That drop off, should give you a point where you can start looking to tweak the number so that great players on cutting edge progression content can still do their job without fretting and getting pissed because of threat stats, but still provides a challenge to those who aren't "that good".

So, If need be, we can take this to PM's or another thread, but I'm REALLY interested in your opinions on the matter.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Malthrax » Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:45 am

Darielle wrote: I >can< see them also using boss mechanics to "make" it matter. Remember Malygos and Hodir Hardmode and Vezax having mechanics that involved buffing the damage dealers but not the tank? Or LDW with the threat reduction? That kind of "gimmick" thing. Put that in strategic places and people start looking at how to deal with multiple sets or balanced stats.


They could try to make the bosses "smarter", too. Never quite understood why the Big Bad will stand there bashing on the constantly healed tin-can stabbing with a twig, while twenty four other people stand back and lay the hurt down with near impunity.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Levantine » Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:50 am

rodos wrote:
Levantine wrote:Sorry to crush everyone's hopes and dreams, but base spirit doesn't count towards the spirit->hit conversion talents, only spirit from gear contributes.

This is way off-topic, but are you absolutely certain? I remember once screwing up the reforging on my Ret set because I was doing it in Holy spec and undershot the hit cap due to spi -> hit conversion (and no, none of my Ret gear has spirit on it). I could be imagining it, or I may have messed up in some other way, but that's how I remember it.

100% sure.

Image

Naked Priest specced into Twisted Faith. 0.00% hit. I'm too lazy to check on my Paladin, but I would be highly surprised if it was any different given the exact same nature of Enlightened Judgements.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Flex » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:35 am

Koatanga wrote:In all cases where a class gets a spirit-to-hit conversion talent, it comes as an extra ability tacked onto another ability..


It is mainly a gear reason. Elemental, Shadow and Balance are designed to DPS in healing gear. Ret and Prot aren't designed to do that.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby BlackNet » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:17 pm

I love the idea. Not only does it bring a more balanced aspect to tanking to the table it will help pad problems that will come up from time to time. i.e. ret pally's TPS issue that is currently in game right now.

I made a good post http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2267582466?page=1#13 about it.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Skye1013 » Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:37 am

Wow Lev... that's a very minimalist setup you have there... I'm sure my setup would drive you nuts :D. Do you have multiple screens with bars for things like pots/profs, or do you just open the tab everytime you wanna access your profs/mounts/etc.?

As far as somehow converting hit/exp into tank stats and removing parry/dodge/etc. that would homogenize the gear a bit more. I wouldn't necessarily mind it, but there is probably an "easier" solution that Blizz would try to take long before that ever occurs.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Levantine » Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:04 am

My Shadow UI is... well a mess. Mostly because I play it so infrequently now that I can't be fucked to put everything where it should be. My healing UI's are almost as clean but with the full two bars of spells. Everything is keybound, and it's not like I have to check ranges or anything on pots or buffs or mounts or pets, so they're hidden out of sight. After 5 years of the game my keybinds are just muscle memory.

*back on topic*

I'll check on my paladin later when I can be bothered to log into her.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Passionario » Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:44 am

Malthrax wrote:They could try to make the bosses "smarter", too. Never quite understood why the Big Bad will stand there bashing on the constantly healed tin-can stabbing with a twig, while twenty four other people stand back and lay the hurt down with near impunity.


If a DPSer or healer dies, this does not mean an immediate wipe. If a tank dies, however, the raid will soon follow suit. From a boss's perspective, this means that non-tanking raid members are essentially squishy faceless mooks: yes, it's easy to kill one, but another will immediately step into the breach.

On other hand, a shining, armored, almost invulnerable figure with righteousness emanating from every orifice, who stands at the forefront of the invading force, shouting orders and getting directly in the boss's face is clearly a leader. So instead of slashing and clawing his way through endless rank-and-file, the boss decides to decapitate the opposing army by killing its leader(s), forcing an immediate rout.
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