GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Shoju » Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:04 pm

Arianne wrote:I think that's a really good idea Shoju and you should post it on the WoW tank forums if you haven't (maybe with a different writing style as more of a formal idea proposal). If you don't want to write it up, then I'll volunteer to do it.


I just checked, and some of the more "notable" tanks on the boards have proposed something very similar to this. Guess I wasn't the only one thinking about it :)
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Koatanga » Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:17 pm

Skye1013 wrote:There aren't any buffs to spirit anymore, unless you flask/pot/food buff spirit (which means you're now chosing threat over survivability, so why not just do that with a hit/exp pot/food buff?) And that 117 spirit -> hit would be what... just under 1%?

Which is just under 1% more than we get for it now. I have 117 points of a stat that is completely useless to me. I see no downside to making some use out of it, however limited.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Flex » Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:31 pm

Koatanga wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:There aren't any buffs to spirit anymore, unless you flask/pot/food buff spirit (which means you're now chosing threat over survivability, so why not just do that with a hit/exp pot/food buff?) And that 117 spirit -> hit would be what... just under 1%?

Which is just under 1% more than we get for it now. I have 117 points of a stat that is completely useless to me. I see no downside to making some use out of it, however limited.


So hunters should get something for having base int and spirit as well.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Malthrax » Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:48 pm

Flex wrote:
Koatanga wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:There aren't any buffs to spirit anymore, unless you flask/pot/food buff spirit (which means you're now chosing threat over survivability, so why not just do that with a hit/exp pot/food buff?) And that 117 spirit -> hit would be what... just under 1%?

Which is just under 1% more than we get for it now. I have 117 points of a stat that is completely useless to me. I see no downside to making some use out of it, however limited.


So hunters should get something for having base int and spirit as well.


Int increases Spellpower, which in turn buffs Arcane Shot.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:12 pm

Malthrax wrote:Int increases Spellpower, which in turn buffs Arcane Shot.


I know this was tongue in cheek and/or sarcastic but, no it doesn't. :P
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Dantriges » Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:45 pm

Klaudandus wrote:
Dantriges wrote:Yeah seems that they won´t turn it into more dodge/parry. That´s probably right out of the window. As he described, we will probably need hit/expertise to make our defensive abilities actually work at all.

If we are forced to hit/expertise cap, they hopefully plan for that in encounter design, so we don´t turn into Mr Squishy.


This I am afraid of. I mean, we already have more stats to worry about than other classes/roles, then to us hit caps on our threat stats just so our mitigation stats actually work? And then having encounters not account for this... which has happened before.


What stats do you mean? We only care about a few. Avoidance stats and well dodge/parry aren´t very different.

For us the desision is Stack avoidance stats in a mixture you are comfortable with. Perhaps gem some health. Ohers have to work with one or two caps in mind. Stack a primary stat and get the secondary one that is the most advantegous.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Koatanga » Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:09 pm

Flex wrote:So hunters should get something for having base int and spirit as well.

If hunters had one tree in which spirit and int were converted to more useful stats, such as Enlightened Judgments for paladins which converts spirit to hit, I would say that would make sense for them to have it be baseline as well.

In all cases where a class gets a spirit-to-hit conversion talent, it comes as an extra ability tacked onto another ability. It's the french fries of the talent tree. This suggests it's not sufficiently powerful to be a talent all by itself, so why not just make it baseline?

It would make sense that classes that use spirit would have some affinity for it that would spill to their other trees. Not in ways that would make it worth stacking, but like how ret and prot pallies benefit from what little intellect they have.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:33 pm

Dantriges wrote:What stats do you mean? We only care about a few. Avoidance stats and well dodge/parry aren´t very different.

For us the desision is Stack avoidance stats in a mixture you are comfortable with. Perhaps gem some health. Ohers have to work with one or two caps in mind. Stack a primary stat and get the secondary one that is the most advantegous.


Not precisely stats, but rather gearing paradigms. Arianne put it much better earlier in this thread.

In a situation where, as a group, you're supposed to resolve for x for the less amount of effort, once that combination is found, it spreads like wildfire --- the trend, it seems, as I am not a hardmore hardcore raider, is you move away from hit/exp and push for stam/avoidance, which has always really been the case, to be honest... but on the regular content, you could go for a balanced gearing set and be completely effective.

It's really not my fault that high end guilds, and tanks, move towards stam/avoidance at the expense of everything else if that's what solves X and blizz doesn't like it.

It just happens that next time around, whatever hits us is gonna hit like a truck compared to current content and with the stat inflation, it will continue to happen yet and yet again.

I dunno if I'm rambling too much here, or if you get the gist of my rant -- i really have a bad migraine so I am not being really coherent.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby tinalt » Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:44 pm

I hope they do it. I'm sick of people telling me I'm a baddie because I reforged to be hit capped and at the exp soft cap.
I don't care that it's not ideal in the world of hard mode world first progression tanking. It makes my life easier because it means consistant holy power generation, that I'm a dependable interrupter, and that I never, ever, ever have to worry about threat. If they give me some sort of cookie for doing what I'm already doing? I'll take it.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Levantine » Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:28 pm

Sorry to crush everyone's hopes and dreams, but base spirit doesn't count towards the spirit->hit conversion talents, only spirit from gear contributes.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby theckhd » Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:37 pm

I don't actually like the "vengeance increases with hit/exp rating" variation for a number of reasons, but I don't want to derail the discussion too much so I'll leave it at that.

<edit> I also don't like the "cooldowns can miss" version, in fact I like that much less.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby masterpoobaa » Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:47 pm

My solution.

Do away with avoidance stats on gear.
No more dodge/parry.
Keep mastery.
Ditch Vengeance entirely.
Share our gear with the DPS. ie gear to have Hit, Crit, Exp, Haste and Mastery.

Have our tanking trees obtain dodge/parry/block from the above stats.
Ie Hit gives dodge, exp gives parry, crit and haste give (small) amounts of extra dodge/parry and mastery gives block as per normal.

As we will have the essentially the same gear as DPS, we will be putting out similar raw DPS (though a bit lower as we will favour stam gemming and enchanting).
Having similar DPS means we can ditch vengeance, and just rely on our RF/Blood Presence/Bear form/Defensive stance for the extra threat requied to stay above the DPS.

Too radical?
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Koatanga » Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:13 pm

I wouldn't say it's radical - bears are pretty much there already. Healers share gear (pretty much) with hybrid casters.

I don't particularly like the idea, because then the mouth-breathers who contribute to DPS queues instead of helping to alleviate them will be rolling on my gear.

But it is a sound idea.

I would change some of the relationships - I think dodge would be better tied to something that doesn't have a definite cap, for instance.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Lieris » Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:17 pm

masterpoobaa wrote:My solution.

Do away with avoidance stats on gear.


No thank you.

I don't really know what they can do. Obtaining avoidance and block is always going to be the most powerful thing to gear for CTC, I am not sure how they can make Exp/Hit equal to it without some really annoying mechanics. The no holy power on misses and the unlucky strings of ShOR misses early on in a fight feel like too much punishment already.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby theckhd » Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:21 pm

That (<edit> masterpoobaa's suggestion) doesn't work. The whole point of Vengeance was that a tank has too much survivability to have the same DPS as a raw DPS class. That unbalances things in PvP.

Vengeance on hit/exp also has a problem, which is that you now have very nonlinear scaling with hit/exp. Plus they're already threat stats to begin with, there's no reason to piggyback another threat mechanic on them. It should be possible to balance things such that hit/exp are more attractive. It would already be the case if the Vengeance cap were lower.
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