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Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby bldavis » Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:47 pm

Darielle wrote: Being a "great" dps requires pretty much the same traits that being a 'great" tank does.

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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby Vrimmel » Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:49 pm

Darielle wrote:
When I want to have to think during an instance, I tank.
When I want to coast thru smashing buttons with my facial features, I dps.
When I want to find an inbetween area, I heal.

DPS is just stupidly easy. If you can stay out of bad crap on the ground while minimizing the DPS loss from moving, you can be a great DPSer right now. My mage, DK, pally, and shaman all have the same procedure...first come, first serve cooldown rotation. With macros, keeping CC'd mobs CC'd is a no-brainer. When it comes to procs, my pretty buttons light up to let me know what to press.


Lol.

Being a "great" dps requires pretty much the same traits that being a 'great" tank does. What you described is being "average".


While I agree that being great requires more than just knowing basics, knowing the basics already puts you ahead of "average" as long as you have a certain amount of experience in executing it.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby rodos » Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:58 pm

The real disparity I see is the amount of thinking, leading, and coordination that a tank needs to do for 5-man trash compared to any other situation. That's really what's stopped me tanking for a long time - it's too much of a barrier to learn all the mob abilities, and think about every class CC, just for a quick after-dinner laptop-in-front-of-the-telly heroic.

By contrast, healing randoms is pretty easy - even if you don't know all the abilities. Once you out-gear the dungeon it's almost reduced to the "fill bars" game alluded to by the original article. Bad damage? Just DL spam for a bit, no worries. The other day in H. Stonecore with a slightly undergeared newbie tank (from my guild) we accidentally pulled 2 whole groups before Ozruk with no CC. I just popped all my cooldowns in a row, nobody died and I had mana at the end of it. My knowledge of those mobs is really no more than "the fire ones put nasty stuff on the ground".

I'd like to see heroic trash that just don't require a tank. Spec dps or whatever until the boss comes up. Treat every trash pull as a "pvp fight". We know that Delrissa and Faction Champs were both pug-killers. Maybe if we all got used to dealing with tankless encounters we'd actually be better players. Everyone could share the load of mob control, kiting, cooldowns, etc. It would certainly solve the class design problem of "if it doesn't increase my dps it is a junk talent".
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby masterpoobaa » Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:26 pm

I'd like to see heroic trash that just don't require a tank. Spec dps or whatever until the boss comes up. Treat every trash pull as a "pvp fight". We know that Delrissa and Faction Champs were both pug-killers. Maybe if we all got used to dealing with tankless encounters we'd actually be better players. Everyone could share the load of mob control, kiting, cooldowns, etc. It would certainly solve the class design problem of "if it doesn't increase my dps it is a junk talent".


This is actually a decent idea, though we all know it will never get implemented.
Imagine the howls of protest from all the PuG failures out there. Getting out of fire is hard enough while pushing dps buttons!

I have been abused quite a few times when tanking mobs/effects that are untankable.

* A deathtard complaining that he died to a mobs whirlwind.
* Those spirits in Sethekk Halls that spawn from the Time Lost mobs when they die.
* 2 Headed ogre boss in H-Shattered Halls when he changes target.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby Amirya » Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:03 pm

masterpoobaa wrote:* A deathtard complaining that he died to a mobs whirlwind.

"Whirlwinds are untankable, retard."
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby Passionario » Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:26 am

rodos wrote:I'd like to see heroic trash that just don't require a tank. Spec dps or whatever until the boss comes up. Treat every trash pull as a "pvp fight". We know that Delrissa and Faction Champs were both pug-killers. Maybe if we all got used to dealing with tankless encounters we'd actually be better players. Everyone could share the load of mob control, kiting, cooldowns, etc. It would certainly solve the class design problem of "if it doesn't increase my dps it is a junk talent".

Let's be honest: the only thing of value that Delrissa and Faction Champions taught players is that one should always bring the class, not the player. The optimal solution to "PvP fights" has always been to use enough CC and/or burst to bypass the most difficult elements of the fight and trivialize the encounter (be it 3 mages vs. Delrissa or Mortal Strike/AotD/BL vs. Champions). For this reason, such encounters are a balancing nightmare: they are pretty much facerollable by groups with 'correct' composition and simultaneously nigh-impossible for 'wrong' setups.

Demanding strict composition in raids and BC-era premade 5-man groups is bad enough. Demanding strict composition in a randomly assembled heroic group is a recipe for utter disaster. The number of PUGs that would immediately disband upon finding themselves in such an instance would make Oculus look like a popular nightclub in comparison.

Mind, I'm not saying that this idea could never work, I'm just saying that it wouldn't work in the current incarnation of WoW. Now RIFT, on other hand, could pull it off with no problem...
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:47 am

Amirya wrote:
masterpoobaa wrote:* A deathtard complaining that he died to a mobs whirlwind.

"Whirlwinds are untankable, retard."

As I learned on my rogue though... a lot are stunnable which stops the WW (obviously doesn't work on most bosses.) Not to say it's the tanks job to stun it, but people with stuns, that die from WW, should be targeting the WW mob and preparing to stun... I'd be willing to bet Hungering Cold would work for this as well.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby DexterBelgium » Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:28 am

I love the direction the thread has taken, and a number of great things have been said.

In general, I think the point of the post is that "people" in PuG Heroics "assume" (yes, assumption, the mother of all wipes) that the tank is the tourguide, setting the pace and knowing the dungeon. It is mostly this tourguide function that adds a lot of stress, and the fact that you stand a better than 50% chance of getting a PuG that expects this (even if almost half of the time you wouldn't), is, imho, what fills some people with fear to tank LFD heroics.

Even with two guildies by my side, I have gotten chewed out when we queued for a hc and got a hc that I had never done, even though my guild mates would lead the pug and talk me through it. "OMG, haven't you done this before, noob tank" "Go do normals first dumbass" etc etc.

Even now I know there's one or two heroics that have just never come up and which I haven't had a particular reason to run via specifics (SFK, Deadmines), I dread that these will come up, but by now I have enough confidence in my gear and ability to bluff through even those.

Important to note is that this is true for PuG HCs only (mostly). In raids, it makes much less (to no) sense to have a tank be a raid leader (although some great raid leaders are tanks), and it is actually the Raid leader that takes all of the abovementioned stress (times a few, because now he has to herd MORE cats, and instruct a lot more people).
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby Shathus » Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:37 am

DexterBelgium wrote:Important to note is that this is true for PuG HCs only (mostly). In raids, it makes much less (to no) sense to have a tank be a raid leader (although some great raid leaders are tanks), and it is actually the Raid leader that takes all of the abovementioned stress (times a few, because now he has to herd MORE cats, and instruct a lot more people).


I dunno, I generally feel I have more freedom to make the raids calls and such I need as a tank, though to be fair I've never done it as DPS. Generally ranged is good for this/to help out as they have a good view of the fight. I hate having to lead if I switch to heals. Usually because either BigBadAbility is coming up that I need to prepare for and/or a quick decision needs to be made and it's like, "ok now everyone needs to... shitshitshit people about to die need to heal and must focus" and I tend to get zoned in on my raid frames and miss timers.

But I also don't do it a lot so just a lack of practice/I suck too :)
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby Digren » Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:59 am

Shathus wrote:
DexterBelgium wrote:Important to note is that this is true for PuG HCs only (mostly). In raids, it makes much less (to no) sense to have a tank be a raid leader (although some great raid leaders are tanks), and it is actually the Raid leader that takes all of the abovementioned stress (times a few, because now he has to herd MORE cats, and instruct a lot more people).


I dunno, I generally feel I have more freedom to make the raids calls and such I need as a tank, though to be fair I've never done it as DPS. Generally ranged is good for this/to help out as they have a good view of the fight. I hate having to lead if I switch to heals. Usually because either BigBadAbility is coming up that I need to prepare for and/or a quick decision needs to be made and it's like, "ok now everyone needs to... shitshitshit people about to die need to heal and must focus" and I tend to get zoned in on my raid frames and miss timers.

But I also don't do it a lot so just a lack of practice/I suck too :)

In EQ raid leading was a full-time job. I had two other people be puller and main tank while I managed people and high-level planning.

In WoW I'm happy to have someone else raid lead while I'm MT. They can handle the people coming and going, the other role leads, explaining fights, reminding people of things, watching the fight from afar to see what goes wrong. (Actually I specifically like a ranged DPS to be raid lead.) As MT I can still call out stuff when I want to, I still mark, I pull, I pace trash, I just don't have to be "management".
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby Brekkie » Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:18 pm

Passionario wrote:
Koatanga wrote:I do tend to see DPS as a less important role in a PuG 5-man, because they can, and do, get carried. It's far more difficult to carry a tank or healer than it is to carry a poor DPS.


Tanking and healing is a binary sort of job: either you succeed or you fail, and it is immediately obvious which is the case.

DPSing, on other hand, has a very broad spectrum of outcomes, which are less obvious. Is doing 12K OK on this fight? What about 9.5K? Should we push to 17K each? Is 7K acceptable, given all the movement we have to do?

The obvious result of this is that bad players can play the DPS role and get carried, because their poor performance does not, in general, immediately wipe the group and raise red flags.

The less obvious result is that once tanks and healers reach the plateau where they can consistently succeed, there is little incentive for them to improve further. If a healer can keep everyone alive and finish the fight at 40% mana, why should she go out of her way to end at 50%? If the tank can stay at 250% of the next DPSer's threat, why should he push to 300%?

For the DPSers, on other hand, there is no upper threshold on performance. No matter how good or well-geared you are, you can always do MORE damage, kill everything quicker, shave another minute off the run time.


While in general I agree with this, I'd add one little-mentioned caveat. Tanks are DPS too.

The actual "tanking" part of a tank's job is in general the absolute easiest role in the entire raid group, with few exceptions. And it is a finite requirement. The amount of "tanking" to be done, and the threshold of what the best possible job you can do doing that tanking are both set at a flat plateau. When your threat is sufficient and all mobs are picked up and positioning is perfect and defensive cooldowns are being used appropriately, there's nothing left for a tank to do. That's where DPS comes in.

The reason DPS is so different from the other two roles tanking and healing is that it's plateau is unattainable. No human being using any set of hardware can meet their theoretical maximum output. So, while tanks just have to tank up to the point where there is no more tanking to be done, and healers have to heal only to the point where there is no more damage to be healed, DPS is never enough and can only be measured as percentages of perfect.

A truly great tank or healer, short of being so incredible that they allow you to drop to one less tank or healer (which is generally dictated more by the encounter mechanics than the skills of the player), is one who knows how to temper their primary role with DPS. When there is nothing to tank, you DPS. If threat is sufficient on adds, throw damage into the boss. When there is a burn target and healing will manage for the time being, spend a gcd on a DoT or a smite cast. Know the difference between a max-threat rotation and a max-DPS rotation, if one exists, and know which abilities put out the highest damage in a limit of 1-2 GCDs when that is all you have to spend throwing into the boss before the next add comes out.

Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS.
Unless you know this and play like it, you cannot be a truly great tank or healer. That's how hard fights go down.

Watch a Yog-0 pre-nerf video from a tank or healer perspective. That's the fight that really taught me this lesson.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby Brekkie » Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:28 pm

Regarding the raid leader discussion, I found that raid leading as a Melee DPS worked out pretty well.
Your view isn't as obstructed as the tank's is and you have more freedom of movement to get a good view because your positioning doesn't have to be static and hit boxes are generally pretty big.
While Ranged dps would tend to offer the best viewpoint, ranged generally as more stuff going on to worry about, like collapsing and spreading out and dodging things and staying in range of targets, whereas melee is often more free to just tunnel the boss unless they get the "run-out" debuff on them.
Healers are terrible raid leaders because their performance suffers the most from the distraction. It's already a challenging job to split attention between encounter mechanics that affect you and a set of raid frames. Healers often remark about how interesting it is to see a movie of a kill because it is the first time they've actually gotten to watch the fight.

In my experience, being raid leader is roughly a 5% DPS reduction, depending on the encounter. That rule has held true through several different DPS raid leaders I've experienced, as well as for myself.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby Blackharon » Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:46 pm

I've RLed and MTed since Kara... I don't understand the 'obstructed views' comment. Zooming out, panning the camera around to get a good view are second nature. I can view the fight from almost anywhere I want to.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby Xfighter » Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:49 pm

Some others said that they tanked when they wanted to think, dps'd for Faceroll, and healed
for a middle area. This seems odd, at least to me. I find these days while tanking pugs, tanking is nearly on par with DPS in terms of focus, for the sheer fact that most of the duties outlined are just second nature, cruise-control things. I find that with healing, I think more than in the other two rolls, as with healing you need to keep the group up, but also have to make sure you have mana for the whole fight (which changes with every group/fight, as the groups overall DPS can have such a huge delta). All of this could be a moot point when one has appropriate gear/over gear an instance.


Now in regards to a tanks specific role in pug 5's, situational awareness, and adaptability are key points in being a good tank. If one possesses thes two things, any run with any group can be trivialized, purely from a change of mindset of the tank.

When I roll into a pug heroic, the first thing I test is what the healers capabilities are, and a good area/method to keep them on the move with ideally minimal work. What I mean is, see if they can manage no CC easily, or if it's a struggle, or if it's in the middle area. I then base the rest of the pulls around that set threshold.
-Then testing the DPS for if they can avoid stuff to keep the healer on me, and also how long it takes to kill trash/bosses, and plan my timing around that.
-Also, as a tank you learn the mechanics of a place pretty quickly, and (at least for me) retain that knowledge for future runs. Are there pulls that can be done while the healer is drinking? Does this pull require the whole group or can it easily be done down one or two, to keep the run going? Etc.

There's always more that can be on a tanks mind, but these are the main things I personally can remember. The main things for a tank to have to "lead" pug groups is awareness. If the tank treats every pug group the same as the last, they will most likely fail. Each group will have strengths and weaknesses, the tank can lead them effectively by realizing these strengths and weaknesses.


So yes, tanks do have to do a lot, but for the people who are intent on tanking and not just doing it on a whim, leading pugs really shouldn't be that taxing on them. The processes I listed above that I go through are usually accomplished within the first pull or two, and then cruise-control is set for the rest of the instance.



In light of all of this, tanks without this awareness stand out and cause the bad mentality from pugs and healers, which give tanks a bad rep in some cases. Groups don't always need a leader, but more so someone they can feel confident in. Whether that be the tanks ability/confidence/leadership, or the healers ability to keep people up in a situation that got out of hand, or ballet DPS players who do damage while still CC'ing/staying in control. With at least one of these things, a pug can succeed, even without a single person (like the tank according to the original poster stated) taking on a role of leader.


TL;DR: All a pug needs to succeed is confidence in who they are running with. Even if they don't have a natural confidence based on observation, if a person steps up to lead then they can still have confidence in that person trying. Tanks being seen as the default leader doesn't need to hold true, and I'd encourage trying not to be the leader as a tank, just for the sheer fact that by letting others try it, you help build that persons ability, and effectively create a better pug experience later on.


(some of this is probably rambling, but yea. XD)
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby inthedrops » Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:38 pm

Here's my opinion.

* Being an average Tank is faceroll.
* Being an average DPS is faceroll.
* Being a really good Tank is difficult and takes skill.
* Being a really good DPS is difficult and takes skill.

It is much easier to detect average tanks than average DPS. Tank mistakes are usually more apparent, DPS mistakes are usually less apparent (didn't time DPS cooldowns well, didn't anticipate needing to move in X seconds thus having to stop casting, etc.). DPS mistakes usually result in less damage being done by the individual. Tank mistakes usually screw every in one way or another (e.g. reducing overall raid damage)

This is why DPS'ing seems "easier" if you want to be "average".

Being a better than average DPS'er takes just as much skill as any other role. It just happens that will all roles, most people are completely average and you can't tell the damn difference anyway.

The reason some tanks such as myself see DPS as being "easier" is because the countless mistakes we make while DPS'ing are difficult for others to detect, which reduces the stress level.
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