Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby bldavis » Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:10 pm

Flex wrote:He has learned the most important thing though, LOS mobs to make them come to you. So pro.

this is so frickin hard sometimes on my warrior

its just so satisfying to charge in and smash my shield in their face...
oh and add in gun-ho dps that i LOOK at a mob they pop cds and go balls-to-the-wall on it
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby Digren » Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:53 am

Kelaan wrote:
Chasey wrote:3 to 4 pulls later you can tell if you got a decent tank. How many times have you landed in a que where the tank isn't marking and doesn't know the fights? You can almost bet the run is going to go bad.

Very true. I think the point of the OP was that often those new tanks may not realize that everyone EXPECTS them to take on that leadership role, and that if they don't mark CC, it is taken to mean "please don't use CC".

Actually, I'm trying a new policy. I say this at the start of an instance:

"If you can CC, please claim a mark (besides skull). Mark something you can CC after I mark skull, and CC it after I pull skull."

Then I mark skull, wait a while, and pull. If no one marks anything, I pull the cluster and we slog through it. Usually on the second pull at least one person will mark something. And really, for most packs CCing just one is enough to make them trivial.

In this way, I've chosen to empower DPS with another responsibility. They know what types of mobs they can CC. They can learn what types they should CC (hint: the caster or ranged mob I have trouble pulling in). And I expect ones that want to run with me to do this without my guidance.

I suggest anyone who runs instances (PUGs or in guild) to do the same. If every tank followed my strategy, we could actually move one responsibility from the tank list to the DPS/healer list.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby Passionario » Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:23 am

Digren wrote:Actually, I'm trying a new policy. I say this at the start of an instance:

"If you can CC, please claim a mark (besides skull). Mark something you can CC after I mark skull, and CC it after I pull skull."

Then I mark skull, wait a while, and pull. If no one marks anything, I pull the cluster and we slog through it. Usually on the second pull at least one person will mark something. And really, for most packs CCing just one is enough to make them trivial.

In this way, I've chosen to empower DPS with another responsibility. They know what types of mobs they can CC. They can learn what types they should CC (hint: the caster or ranged mob I have trouble pulling in). And I expect ones that want to run with me to do this without my guidance.

I suggest anyone who runs instances (PUGs or in guild) to do the same. If every tank followed my strategy, we could actually move one responsibility from the tank list to the DPS/healer list.


I approve of this method.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby Brekkie » Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:44 am

So some dude that's never done anything hard tanks 5-mans for group finder retards and thinks that this is some kind of indication about his raiding role. And NOT the fact that he just happens to be grouping with retards.

Tanking is by far the least difficult role to play to a high standard. The only difference is that you can be carried as a healer or dps that is playing at a low standard without the group necessarily wiping. But that is DPS and healers playing at a low standard, and has nothing to do with the skill cap of mastery of the role.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby benebarba » Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:02 am

I've come to love my guildies because they are good at their roles - something PUGs have taught me. When we roll, everyone is doing something appropriate to the encounter at all times (at least until we started to severely outgear them, then the healer started getting bored but in a good way :P ). So much so that I have had to start retraining myself to not try to pick up a mob that just had its CC wear off a bit sooner than expected... because just as I do, that refresh is hitting and I see a 'sorry about that' in party chat or vent.

What I have learned this expansion is that *good* dps is easily as hard as *good* tanking and *good* healing is possibly harder. But without something like recount, it's a hell of a lot harder to notice a mediocre DPS. With tanks (and healers I'd say), it shows up pretty quick just as bad DPS shows up quick.

From a DPS perspective, I kinda like some of Frostheim's articles on the role of DPS over at Warcraft Hunter's Union. But I do think this article smacks too much of oversimplification of other roles, while making some valid points.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby Sturmm:) » Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:03 pm

I don't tank pugs on my paladin period. It's just not worth the hassle you get from people 9 times out 10 and thats what 2 years of Wrath pugs has done to me. I only ever run 5 mans as a tank if guildies are asking for it the rest of the time i'll log my lock/hunter/druid/mage/warrior/whatever and que as a dps. I also strongly dislike healing 5 man heroics, have no problem healing in raids and enjoy it when i do, there's just a sense of control lost when in a 5 man.
As a dps i generally have only myself to worry about and maybe the target i'm CCing and that's it, if i die it was probably my own fault or i could have atleast done something to avoid it.
When tanking i can control most of the fight, incoming damage, mob position, loose CC, interupts you name it and i like being able to do that (for my guild who appreciate the workload. PuGs tend to blame and point the finger the moment something goes wrong and i just can't be bothered dealing with that.
Healing on the other hand i have no control over anything, i can't stop people taking damage, i can't move the mobs to a better position, i can't offtank or kite a loose mob all i can do is heal and hope that the rest of the group don't make any more mistakes.

To everyone saying that the OP is biased towards tanks and over simplifies the roles of healers and dps, of course he does he's a tank and a self confessed bad dps and healer. However the points he's making are vaild as are some the the comments posted in this thread. Good players will play well and make it look easy and after awhile they'll even think its easy not realising that most of the stuff they do now while playing was learnt over a long period of time becoming second nature only after practice.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby Archeth » Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:51 pm

Digren wrote:Actually, I'm trying a new policy. I say this at the start of an instance:

"If you can CC, please claim a mark (besides skull). Mark something you can CC after I mark skull, and CC it after I pull skull."

Then I mark skull, wait a while, and pull. If no one marks anything, I pull the cluster and we slog through it. Usually on the second pull at least one person will mark something. And really, for most packs CCing just one is enough to make them trivial.

In this way, I've chosen to empower DPS with another responsibility. They know what types of mobs they can CC. They can learn what types they should CC (hint: the caster or ranged mob I have trouble pulling in). And I expect ones that want to run with me to do this without my guidance.

I suggest anyone who runs instances (PUGs or in guild) to do the same. If every tank followed my strategy, we could actually move one responsibility from the tank list to the DPS/healer list.

I actually tried to handle CC this way recently because I met an increasing number of tanks who handled Cata heroics like WotLK since the Luck of the Draw buff, ie. they rush in and expect the healer to keep them up no matter what, even if either their own or their healer's gear isn't ready. Most of the time other DPS or the tank himself keeps breaking mobs out of fear which is annoying because with the glyph I can't just reapply fear constantly (it gets a 5s CD), but I actually think it's a good policy in general and would advise tanks (especially new ones who may be insecure) to use it.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby Amirya » Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:44 pm

Sturmm:) wrote:I don't tank pugs on my paladin period. It's just not worth the hassle you get from people 9 times out 10

This.

This is my new policy regarding tanking pugs. To me, the VP isn't worth the hassle, so I just don't bother. If a guildie asks me, sure I'm happy to oblige. If we have a pugged healer, I'll generally leave it up to the healer if they want CC or no.

And then I get the idiots who are all "gogogo" mindset, pull for me, and/or do other assorted stupid stuff that makes me want to be the biggest bitch ever.

And everytime I'm on vent with bldavis and he's commentating his own heroic runs, I am reminded of why I won't tank pugs.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby bldavis » Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:04 am

i do have some interesting runs dont i?
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby Levantine » Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:40 am

You people have weird definitions for words like interesting.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby Skye1013 » Sun Mar 20, 2011 3:28 am

Levantine wrote:You people have weird definitions for words like interesting.

Old Chinese/Irish Curse (true origins unknown): "May you live in interesting times." That alone causes me to use interesting as both a good or bad term (sometimes both, based on the reader/listener/context, and more often than not sarcastically.)
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby Passionario » Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:54 am

Koatanga wrote:I do tend to see DPS as a less important role in a PuG 5-man, because they can, and do, get carried. It's far more difficult to carry a tank or healer than it is to carry a poor DPS.


Tanking and healing is a binary sort of job: either you succeed or you fail, and it is immediately obvious which is the case.

DPSing, on other hand, has a very broad spectrum of outcomes, which are less obvious. Is doing 12K OK on this fight? What about 9.5K? Should we push to 17K each? Is 7K acceptable, given all the movement we have to do?

The obvious result of this is that bad players can play the DPS role and get carried, because their poor performance does not, in general, immediately wipe the group and raise red flags.

The less obvious result is that once tanks and healers reach the plateau where they can consistently succeed, there is little incentive for them to improve further. If a healer can keep everyone alive and finish the fight at 40% mana, why should she go out of her way to end at 50%? If the tank can stay at 250% of the next DPSer's threat, why should he push to 300%?

For the DPSers, on other hand, there is no upper threshold on performance. No matter how good or well-geared you are, you can always do MORE damage, kill everything quicker, shave another minute off the run time.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby Vrimmel » Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:46 am

Personally I've always liked doing hcs the wotlk way even in cata. It's much more fun and challenging having to rotate cooldowns, interrupt mobs, kite etc. It probably doesn't work too well in a pug as I only did guild runs, but I've hardly used cc except with the most deadly mob packs. And I did this with guild runs when everyone was barely above the minimum avg gear score, so I'm guessing it should be even easier now.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby yappo » Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:45 am

Vrimmel wrote:Personally I've always liked doing hcs the wotlk way even in cata. It's much more fun and challenging having to rotate cooldowns, interrupt mobs, kite etc. It probably doesn't work too well in a pug as I only did guild runs, but I've hardly used cc except with the most deadly mob packs. And I did this with guild runs when everyone was barely above the minimum avg gear score, so I'm guessing it should be even easier now.


It actually works just as well with pugs. Sure, I'm at some ilevel 353 in my threat-set (hit-capped and 24 expertize glyphed), so I take about the amount of damage I once did with my ilevel 348:ish survival set (but with some extra 3k health due to dps-gear having the same stamina as their tanking counter-parts).

If people want to CC post-pull, fine, I'll move the group away from CC targets. Usually we just burn crap down though. I'm at some 10.5k dps overall, which basically allows for a 4k "dps" in a group where the last two dps do 8k+. In reality I tend to end up third, and with two dps doing 12k or better it's a lot faster doing controlled AoE-runs WotLK style. Sure, I have to stun, interrupt and taunt occasionally, but as you wrote -- a lot more fun.

4.1 will reintroduce coordinated CC for a while I suspect :D
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby Darielle » Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:48 am

When I want to have to think during an instance, I tank.
When I want to coast thru smashing buttons with my facial features, I dps.
When I want to find an inbetween area, I heal.

DPS is just stupidly easy. If you can stay out of bad crap on the ground while minimizing the DPS loss from moving, you can be a great DPSer right now. My mage, DK, pally, and shaman all have the same procedure...first come, first serve cooldown rotation. With macros, keeping CC'd mobs CC'd is a no-brainer. When it comes to procs, my pretty buttons light up to let me know what to press.


Lol.

Being a "great" dps requires pretty much the same traits that being a 'great" tank does. What you described is being "average".
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