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Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby Kelaan » Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:20 pm

Vrimmel wrote:Seems to me he is making a post about tanks made for tanks to feel better about themselves. He is a player who has played since vanilla and he's complaining about dps not fulfilling their potential. I bet he would make a post about dpsing if he had played a dps for so long.

I saw it as a post for new tanks, saying "this is the mindset you need to have a good tank: Control the battlespace, learn what goes wrong so you can fix it. BTW You need to be Aware." Non-tanks benefit by seeing what we (generally) think about in a dungeon, and what motivates some of our seemingly silly demands (like using CC so the healer doesn't go below half mana each pull, so that accidental double-pulls are sometimes survivable).

He also is telling DPS, "do more than just push dps buttons harder/faster/better/stronger", a message I think we all agree with. Hell, Lore's "RNG" video even talks about this.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby Shoju » Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:50 pm

Flex wrote:
Aubade wrote:I don't mean to be THAT GUY, and you do have some solid points, but I think tanking takes a huge step up from normal -> Heroic nowadays, and the DPS job is nowhere near the step up that tanks have for heroic content.


So what you're saying is DPS start out requiring heroic level ability in normal modes while tanks can skate by being average?


No, but a DPS DPS's no matter what the content in relatively the same way. There are somethings you can flat out get away with in normals that you can't in heroics.

HoO for example. The first pull in there? I can't begin to tell you how many newb tanks I have seen run in there on that pull like it was normal and wipe a group. Especially when in a group that doesn't have a way to remove the buff. You don't need to be "aware" or "CC" or LoS that pull on normal. as an up and coming tank, you better, or it will eat your soul.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby Flex » Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:03 pm

Shoju wrote:
Flex wrote:
Aubade wrote:I don't mean to be THAT GUY, and you do have some solid points, but I think tanking takes a huge step up from normal -> Heroic nowadays, and the DPS job is nowhere near the step up that tanks have for heroic content.


So what you're saying is DPS start out requiring heroic level ability in normal modes while tanks can skate by being average?


No, but a DPS DPS's no matter what the content in relatively the same way. There are somethings you can flat out get away with in normals that you can't in heroics.

HoO for example. The first pull in there? I can't begin to tell you how many newb tanks I have seen run in there on that pull like it was normal and wipe a group. Especially when in a group that doesn't have a way to remove the buff. You don't need to be "aware" or "CC" or LoS that pull on normal. as an up and coming tank, you better, or it will eat your soul.


That doesn't discount what I said, but somewhat reinforces it. Average tanks can skate by in normals and be seen as good but the ramp up in heroics is brutal and good turns into bad. DPS who get the "good" label by doing their job have already been juggling many of the things they have to in heroics in normal modes in avoiding the fire, picking up adds for focus firing or CCing, etc so of course they don't see a huge change going from normals to heroics. Healers are in a similar position as tanks.

It goes back to what Lev said. The OP doesn't understand what it takes to excel in the roles he's not playing so of course they seem easier and get a shorter bullet list of "musts" that they have to do. For instance It felt "easy" tanking some pulls without CC, I didn't understand how much healing had to go into those pulls to make it feel that easy until I started doing some healing, I've gone back to using some CC now.

Make sure that nobody’s hit points get to zero before the pull is ended

Is quite possible one of the more ignorant things said about healing I have ever read. It sums about a huge decision making process into a single over-simple statement.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby Koatanga » Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:38 pm

In addition to my raiding prot pally, I have an alt that is a feral druid tank. I have been running said tank in norms to get a handle on tanking as a bear, and to get her sufficiently geared to face heroics.

I also run my daily valor point run on my prot pally.

What I see is that DPS will ding 80, grab whatever BoE gear they can off the AH that qualifies them for heroics, and queue straight in.

I see this less with healers, though I have had a priest with 60k mana who asked if the ele shaman could heal - clearly unprepared for heroics.

I have not seen tanks doing this, when I have run as healer on my shaman.

DPS, on average, tend to have a much greater sense of entitlement, as if they are owed the instance run because they waited 40 minutes for it. As if they are owed heroics because they met Bliz' ilvl requirement, whether or not the gear is actually suitable. Tanks and healers seem to have a better sense that they need to earn the ability to run heroics.

I do tend to see DPS as a less important role in a PuG 5-man, because they can, and do, get carried. It's far more difficult to carry a tank or healer than it is to carry a poor DPS.

Having said that, it can become much harder to carry a DPS who can't behave. Running with a hunter uses the wrong trap, or auto-attacks the next group, can make the run longer and more frustrating than having one who does poor DPS due to gear and/or experience.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby Aubade » Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:58 pm

Flex wrote:
Aubade wrote:I don't mean to be THAT GUY, and you do have some solid points, but I think tanking takes a huge step up from normal -> Heroic nowadays, and the DPS job is nowhere near the step up that tanks have for heroic content.


So what you're saying is DPS start out requiring heroic level ability in normal modes while tanks can skate by being average?


No. I'm saying if I had to assign a number to how "Hard" a fight is, the difficulty upgrade for dps from normal > Heroic isn't as large as a tanks.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby amh » Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:22 pm

Willing to buy pointers on how to make my point without sounding like a dick:

Tanks aren't necessarily natural leaders. Natural leaders aren't necessarily tanks. The leader of any given organisational unit has the most taxing job; doesn't matter much which role he or she happens to have. I can appreciate that people tend to look to the tank to figure out how to do stuff. It's inbred, if you will. Doesn't mean it's right. Any given group consists of 2-25 people, wherein hopefully one of them knows what the hell the rest are supposed to be doing.

Group/raid leading while tanking is counter intuitive. Arguably tanks should be able to mark targets mid-combat in case shit, otherwise their role and behavior is largely predictable. In that sense: Yes, tanks need to have better situational awareness and class knowledge than other roles. However, it mostly comes down to knowing whether to stun, tank or wait for CC on any given mob. With the exception of CCing / "off-tanking" a lose mob, DPS generally don't need to do much other than follow the kill order.

Tanks don't have much else going for them. They certainly don't have the best point of view. They're either knee deep in mobs, or staring into some boss's crotch. CC not going according to plan / adds showing up generally means one of three things needs to happen:

a) stun it, wait for CC
b) tank it
c) CC it

Only one out of three alternatives is exclusive to tanks. Yes, the tank should be able to call the shot, but in a lot of cases, you'll do fine as long as someone does.

Exluding leadership, tanking isn't hard. At all. I wish that high horse would be put out of its misery soon.

--
Don't get me wrong, it was worth a read. The problem I have with it is that it's based on tanks automagically leading the group (as noted by the author). Subjective evalution of difficulty level in roles, excluding leaderhip: healing > melee dps > tanking > ranged dps. If you decide to raid lead while also tanking, well, good for you. You've asked for it. If you're equally proficient at all roles, then the raid would've been better off with you leading while doing ranged dps (gee wiz, Batman, the view is great from back here!).
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby bldavis » Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:38 pm

so are you saying that just because i am a decent hunter/lock as well as ret/fury specced in addition to my tanking specs, i should have just passed lead to the tanks when not on my hunter/lock?

honestly, if you are able to lead and keep an eye on everything, with out it making your role suffer, then by the hell not?

i take that as part of the challenge of tanking.
i think i have been in just 2-3 runs in icc where i didnt lead at some point

sure it may be easier to be a ranged and lead, but why say YOU TANK! YOU CANNOT LEAD! ME RANGED ME MUST LEAD!

btw, loved the read, have it bookmarked to send to friends
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby amh » Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:39 am

bldavis, was that a reply to me? If so, then I've either expressed myself poorly, or you haven't read it at all :p

bldavis wrote:so are you saying that just because i am a decent hunter/lock as well as ret/fury specced in addition to my tanking specs, i should have just passed lead to the tanks when not on my hunter/lock?


Where did I say that?

honestly, if you are able to lead and keep an eye on everything, with out it making your role suffer, then by the hell not?

i take that as part of the challenge of tanking.


By all means, if you can do it properly, then good for you. I'm arguing the point that tanks are expected to take on the role of leader, and orchestrate everything, leaving the healer with the (@ OP) oversimplified healing job, and dps "just" spamming their rotations. I too am more than capable of group/raid leading while tanking, but that's more because it's been expected of me as a tank, than because I have some strong urge to tell people what to do. If at all possible, I avoid raid leading while tanking, simply because my point of view is bound to be terrible, and I'm more than busy enough with all the other shit I'm supposed to be doing.

sure it may be easier to be a ranged and lead, but why say YOU TANK! YOU CANNOT LEAD! ME RANGED ME MUST LEAD!


Please don't put words in my mouth. I spout enough nonsense as it is without others adding to it. ;)
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby bldavis » Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:52 am

i just wanted to apologize for that post, my brain was still on vacation.

i still stand by the fact that it was a great read
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby Flipthebird » Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:12 am

When it comes to 5-mans (which is what the author was talking about):

When I want to have to think during an instance, I tank.
When I want to coast thru smashing buttons with my facial features, I dps.
When I want to find an inbetween area, I heal.

DPS is just stupidly easy. If you can stay out of bad crap on the ground while minimizing the DPS loss from moving, you can be a great DPSer right now. My mage, DK, pally, and shaman all have the same procedure...first come, first serve cooldown rotation. With macros, keeping CC'd mobs CC'd is a no-brainer. When it comes to procs, my pretty buttons light up to let me know what to press.

I'm not saying tanking is especially hard, but the tank is the one who has to watch every mob in a pull to make sure they arn't off raping some sad DPS/healer. Addons like Tidy Plates helps make this so much easier, of course, but the tank still has to react to it. Most dps actually do stupid things like running away from the fight instead of running towards the tank.

And most DPS really are too concerned with recount numbers to bother adapting to anything. If they pull aggro, they blame the tank instead of perhaps toning down their damage output for a few seconds.

Right now I've been healing on my shammy...and it's just too easy. Earth Shield + healing stream totem means I can take a short nap thru most trash pulls. I'm sure there will be more to it in heroics and whatnot...but jeez.

Remember tho that this argument is about 5-mans. Don't bring in end-game raiding mentality because it's different. Way different.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby Shathus » Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:34 am

I know when I first hit 85, I ran a bunch of normals to get what gear I could, and to learn the instances, then switched to heroics (though mostly full guild runs).

On my shaman who I've only been dps'ing on for the most part (due to my healing gear being awful), as soon as I got 329 gear (avg dps was 316 or so) I queued up for a heroic and didn't look back. Granted, I guess since I had tanked everything, I knew what to do (or at least what I would want a dps to do) so I may not be putting out 12k dps, I was doing enough to not be a hindrance to the group.

Like others have said, if you just queue up for a heroic as a tank/healer. You're likely in for a rough ride (depending on the group).
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby Stubblerump » Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:23 am

"When I want to have to think during an instance, I tank.
When I want to coast thru smashing buttons with my facial features, I dps.
When I want to find an inbetween area, I heal."

^This. At least for me, it takes a completely different mindset/mood for me to tank an instance. I can hop on my Lock/DK/Shaman and dps an instance in a heartbeat, and be totally relaxed throughout the run other than trying to avoid the fire, and throwing up a save the day CC on bad pulls. This is why my Lock gets WAY more play than my pally most days. In fact, I've been so turned off by the abrasive, foulmouthed, clueless, miss/undergeared idiots you get from the Dungeon Finder, that I rarely tank anything these days unless I can start out with 3 or 4 people I know. But when I do tank, I generally need to be somewhat rested and ready to focus on SA and direct the flow of battle/kill orders.

A successful run, whether 5 man or 25 requires all the pieces to work together and do their assigned jobs while making as few mistakes as possible. That being said, a good player is a good player, and valuable, regardless of the role they fill. But Tanks do deserve credit for the extra burden they shoulder.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby Chasey » Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:39 am

This conversation is always a good one but gets beat to death. :lol: The last few days i've been kind of lazy and thru on my ret gear and DPS'd instead of tanking, why? I didn't want to carry a group thru. Not that I always carry a group but in general, if you are tanking there is no down time, there is no...I stood in bad poop! There is no room for error, like you get when you DPS. I'm sorry I don't have a healers POV on this, I haven't healed in Cata. But again as a tank, you have to be in total control of every pull and the next pull as well. On top of that, I've been running into the "never been here before, what do I do" and they expect you to tell them, be it healer or DPS.
The post from the offical forums that was reposted here was spot on. I have a hunter and a DK that I dps with as well, 3 to 4 pulls later you can tell if you got a decent tank. How many times have you landed in a que where the tank isn't marking and doesn't know the fights? You can almost bet the run is going to go bad. If a dps is new or has no clue, you can still get thru it.

I think Digren hit the nail squarly on the head with his situation awearness post.

One other funny thing I've run into lately, is DPS who think they are entitled to be bad or rude or w/e due to the long que times. This isn't only when I'm tanking but as I dps as well. We had a lock do 5k, refuse to stack and die in every puddle, when someone asked him to leave his response "hell no, I waited way to long to get here, deal with it"
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby Kelaan » Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:02 pm

Chasey wrote:3 to 4 pulls later you can tell if you got a decent tank. How many times have you landed in a que where the tank isn't marking and doesn't know the fights? You can almost bet the run is going to go bad.

Very true. I think the point of the OP was that often those new tanks may not realize that everyone EXPECTS them to take on that leadership role, and that if they don't mark CC, it is taken to mean "please don't use CC".
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby Flex » Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:15 pm

Kelaan wrote:
Chasey wrote:3 to 4 pulls later you can tell if you got a decent tank. How many times have you landed in a que where the tank isn't marking and doesn't know the fights? You can almost bet the run is going to go bad.

Very true. I think the point of the OP was that often those new tanks may not realize that everyone EXPECTS them to take on that leadership role, and that if they don't mark CC, it is taken to mean "please don't use CC".


A guildie priest is learning to tank and since he's not all that familiar with the instances from a tanking sv mob ability perspective I tend to give a lot of advice on what and how to do things when I heal or DPS for him.

He has learned the most important thing though, LOS mobs to make them come to you. So pro.
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