Alternative to the 20 second WoG

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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:20 am

knaughty wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:then relegated to necessary but gimmick status in T6/Sunwell where they trivialized Hyjal trash and certain encounters like Felmyst but couldn't tank bosses.

Absolute Rubbish.

I progression tanked Hyjal bar the last dude that needed a fear break, most of BT including our first Illidan kill and most of Sunwell, all as current content except KJ, who we got the week 3.0 dropped.

The only bosses I didn't main-tank were the ones that required a fear break or spell-reflect.


All i was saying was the popular line at the time, not claiming it was actually impossible. You can't tell me progression guilds were going out of their way to recruit paladins to tank Brutallus, and that means something.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Flex » Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:24 am

valura wrote:I already experience being outDPSed and outhealed by my (equally geared) DK co-tank, and when I kinda wonder where that will leave me...


Look at the armor difference between you and your equally geared DK co-tank.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby knaughty » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:43 pm

Sabindeus wrote:All i was saying was the popular line at the time, not claiming it was actually impossible. You can't tell me progression guilds were going out of their way to recruit paladins to tank Brutallus, and that means something.

It means people are stupid. ZOMG! News @ 11!

My personal experience is that (raid makeup allowing) we were the best tank for Brute. Highest threat, highest damage, smoothest/lowest damage intake. We tried all three tanking classes, and that was what we found, backed up by parse analysis (long since expired or I'd be a pedantic dickhead and link).

If you want to say "people thought we couldn't tank bosses" then say that. That's not what you said.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:21 am

knaughty wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:All i was saying was the popular line at the time, not claiming it was actually impossible. You can't tell me progression guilds were going out of their way to recruit paladins to tank Brutallus, and that means something.

It means people are stupid. ZOMG! News @ 11!

My personal experience is that (raid makeup allowing) we were the best tank for Brute. Highest threat, highest damage, smoothest/lowest damage intake. We tried all three tanking classes, and that was what we found, backed up by parse analysis (long since expired or I'd be a pedantic dickhead and link).

If you want to say "people thought we couldn't tank bosses" then say that. That's not what you said.


No, because there were actual concrete reasons for why people thought that at the time. Just because you made it work doesn't mean there was nothing wrong with the class. There's plenty of reasons why that could have been true for you and your group. Yes people can be stupid but that doesn't mean your anecdotal evidence is ironclad proof that Paladins were the best tank.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Lieris » Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:23 pm

knaughty wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:All i was saying was the popular line at the time, not claiming it was actually impossible. You can't tell me progression guilds were going out of their way to recruit paladins to tank Brutallus, and that means something.

It means people are stupid. ZOMG! News @ 11!

My personal experience is that (raid makeup allowing) we were the best tank for Brute. Highest threat, highest damage, smoothest/lowest damage intake. We tried all three tanking classes, and that was what we found, backed up by parse analysis (long since expired or I'd be a pedantic dickhead and link).

If you want to say "people thought we couldn't tank bosses" then say that. That's not what you said.


We were hands down the worst at tanking Brutallus, Felmyst, Kalecgos, Kiljaeden (literally impossible IMO) and Entropius (we were pretty decent on Sacrolash though). I really can't see how you can argue otherwise. I would never have a paladin involved in progression kills on any of these as a boss tank if I was min maxing a raid setup. Our strengths lied elsewhere and if you were taking less damage than a druid or warrior then that says more about those players than anything else. We had no cooldowns, warriors had theirs as well as their trinkets and better stats and better talents. We even had to be babysat: Better hope a warrior puts up demo shout and thunderclap for you. Brutallus didn't crush either so Holy Shield wasn't the ace in the hole it could have been although it did produce respectable threat on this fight.

When I was tanking the last Stomp on one farm kill, someone shouted on vent "quickly Lieris, shield wall!" to take the piss. That summed it up really.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby knaughty » Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:41 pm

Lieris wrote:I really can't see how you can argue otherwise.

Because that wasn't my personal experience of Sunwell. The only progression kill I wasn't involved in tanking was Brute, where I was Ret to get the crit buff up (we needed the DPS).

Kalec I tanked upstairs first.
Brute Ret for first kill, but tanked him fine as a progression tank later.
Felmyst adds (obviously)
Forget which Twin.
M'uru, a bit of everything, mostly voidwalkers, only got him to ~20% before patch 3.0

I also main-tanked most of BT & MH. Yes, you needed support from other people (Thunderclap, etc). So what?

Maybe your implication is correct and I was just a better thank that the warriors & bears we had, but I don't think it's very likely. I was certainly better than any of the bloody off-tankadin applications or trials we ever had.

Anyway, I'm done debating how shit or not we were back at 70. I've had the same sig tagline since then, if you don't like it, tough cookies.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Lieris » Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:49 pm

knaughty wrote:
Lieris wrote: the least avoidance, HP and mitigation.

Not true, and I proved it on Brutallus. We ran parses of me, the bear and our warrior. I had lowest incoming damage.

Block Value + Block Cap = very good mitigation.

Yes, it's only 10% off each hit... That's 10% mitigation, fools!

Number made up, I can't remember what my BV was two+ years ago


I just noticed this post on the other page.

At that gear level your block value was about 450. Melee was about 10k MH and 5k OH during Stomp and I don't think you couldn't block the Stomp itself (Stomp + MH + OH was a real problem). You were not blocking 10% on this fight, especially not when it mattered.

We sucked but you managed to con your raid into letting you progression tank him. Good for you.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Lieris » Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:02 pm

knaughty wrote:
Lieris wrote:I really can't see how you can argue otherwise.

Because that wasn't my personal experience of Sunwell. The only progression kill I wasn't involved in tanking was Brute, where I was Ret to get the crit buff up (we needed the DPS).

Kalec I tanked upstairs first.
Brute Ret for first kill, but tanked him fine as a progression tank later.
Felmyst adds (obviously)
Forget which Twin.
M'uru, a bit of everything, mostly voidwalkers, only got him to ~20% before patch 3.0

I also main-tanked most of BT & MH. Yes, you needed support from other people (Thunderclap, etc). So what?

Maybe your implication is correct and I was just a better thank that the warriors & bears we had, but I don't think it's very likely. I was certainly better than any of the bloody off-tankadin applications or trials we ever had.

Anyway, I'm done debating how shit or not we were back at 70. I've had the same sig tagline since then, if you don't like it, tough cookies.


You're the one who called me out and made numbers up to support your argument. Your arrogant location tag and signature are pretty hilarious and your attitude in general is gross.

I main tanked plenty in TBC too and tanked all content up to Kiljaeden phase 4 pre-nerf. I however am fully aware that that doesn't mean we were good main tanks. We weren't and stupid comments about offtankadins is just false bravado. It was by off tanking in TBC that we made Felmyst, M'uru and Kiljaeden possible, we were completely indispensable. Without this off tank role we were completely redundant.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby knaughty » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:13 pm

Lieris wrote:At that gear level your block value was about 450. Melee was about 10k MH and 5k OH during Stomp and I don't think you couldn't block the Stomp itself (Stomp + MH + OH was a real problem). You were not blocking 10% on this fight, especially not when it mattered.

We sucked but you managed to con your raid into letting you progression tank him. Good for you.


So by your numbers I was probably blocking 6% of his melee damage. My recollection is that it was more, probably because I wore a lot of block value gear. I didn't gear for health-bar, it was neither required nor effective. I've checked some old gear notes from 2008, apparently I could hit 800+ BV if I had to, though I severely doubt I was wearing that much for Brute. I do recall farming up a thousand badges when 2.4 dropped and getting every singe ZA piece in order to be able to tune my gear. Maybe you just needed to work harder.

And I didn't con my raid into anything. Your implication is offensive. Pressure to have me tank stuff mostly came from our healing team leader because he found me easier to heal. Or was (in the case of Brute) backed up by parses showing that I was taking less damage than the other tanks. And before you declare them "bads", they were good enough to get us 4/6 Sunwell pre-nerf and very close to 5/6.

Here's something I wrote in August? 2008 - we were 3/6 Sunwell and it look liked the guild was going to split, so I prepped an app I never submitted. Sample paragraph follows:
Knaughty wrote:While a paladin can MT anything in-game, and (as prot) I do insist on being considered as a real tank, but I'm not precious or deluded into thinking we're the best tank for every fight. Warriors have abilities paladins don't. But the main ones are breaking fear and spell-reflect. If the fight doesn't require those.... anyone can tank it.


I find it sad that you've been on the site even longer than I have, got one boss further into Sunwell than me, but you didn't actually believe the "Maintankadin" bit back when it mattered.

Lieris wrote:Your arrogant location tag and signature are pretty hilarious and your attitude in general is gross.


Location tag: Hyperbole, have you heard of it?
hy·per·bo·le: a figure of speech that is an intentional exaggeration for emphasis or comic effect.

Seriously, if you haven't worked out by now that I'm a one trick pony in the humour department, and that the trick is ZOMGWTFHYPERBOLEWITHEXTRAHYPERBOLICNESSONTOP then I'm not quite sure what so say... I'd probably have to resort to sarcasm, and that would just be out of character.

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What is exactly that you're objecting to?

This isn't the offtankadin forum, and it never was, and it's existed since 2.0. If you enjoyed being an offtankadin back in TBC, good for you. I was a main tank. Yes, I did a lot of add-tanking, because we were very, very good at it.

Second line of my sig is an old job because one of the other regulars was saying he wanted title-stacking. Or are you objecting to the fact that I'm quite proud of the fact I tanked (and the guild killed) Heroic-LK-25? Given I'm semi-retired, my in-game title will probably never change despite the fact Blizzard are deluded enough to think that "Defender of a Shattered World" is more prestigious....

Third line is a link to my stickies.

As for my "attitude" being "gross" - yes, it's goddamn huge. Want some more? I have plenty to spare.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Levantine » Sat Apr 09, 2011 4:14 am

./popcorn
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Lieris » Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:11 am

knaughty wrote:So by your numbers I was probably blocking 6% of his melee damage.


At best (he could peak even higher).

My recollection is that it was more, probably because I wore a lot of block value gear.


Then you were wearing T5 or several Sunwell drops. Only a couple of items from T6 had block value.

I didn't gear for health-bar, it was neither required nor effective.


Yes it was. You needed 20K to survive Stomp + MH + OH. Any additional health provided a buffer for the healers. This was why druids were especially better than paladins: Because their armour was so high (capped even IIRC) the Stomp effected them less they could gear for more avoidance and still have enough HP. The Stomp would take the paladin down to about 11.5K armour, a druid down to 19K assuming Ironshield potions used in both cases.

Druids were really OP in Sunwell but that's another topic.

I've checked some old gear notes from 2008, apparently I could hit 800+ BV if I had to,


You probably could with gimmicks by using every block value piece in the game. So what? It was not a good enough stat to be using gear from previous tiers. Spell damage and stamina were better for Felmyst skeletons and the same for M'uru void spawns but mixed in with shadow resistance gear.

As an aside the same applied to Hyjal trash: Shadow bolts from Necromancers and Abomination stun damage were far more dangerous than the blockable damage. Block value gear was not worth using there.

I find it sad that you've been on the site even longer than I have, got one boss further into Sunwell than me, but you didn't actually believe the "Maintankadin" bit back when it mattered.


Nothing sad about it. We definitely could MT and I did a lot of it including for first kills. That doesn't mean we weren't third best at it on anything that didn't crush. There was absolutely no shame in "off" tanking. I respect far more someone who tanked Illidan flames than someone who did the easy job of tanking Illidan himself.

I've done enough quoting and the rest of your post speaks for itself so I'll leave it there.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Vort » Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:12 pm

Levantine wrote:./popcorn


I thought I'd stay mostly silent for this and simply sit back enjoying the back and forth. Alas my argumentative nature got the best of me!

Paladins weren't the best MT at this point in the game (throughout BC regardless of buffs) and it's fair proof of the top guilds using warriors and bears to accomplish the world firsts. Paladins being amazing at their roles for tanking (AoE/Gimmick Stuff), but simply not as good as a warrior or bear for tanking a lot of the Big Bads. If Paladins had of been the best MT by leaps and bounds, hell even by a bees privates, then you'd have seen top tier guilds running with them on world firsts because of the min/maxing. The result however was that they weren't the best class for the job so they weren't used for the job. Did prot paladins make life easier on a lot of bosses? Sure as bloody hell we did! But since we were lacking Fear breaks, Spell reflects, COOLDOWNS, the warrior was simply superior at the time for MOST main tank situations. Bears coming in a close second with just not as many CD's but a very stable damage intake from crazy armor.

I love paladins, I loved my human paladin in vanilla when they couldn't tank at all. I love my belf paladin who never tanked in BC because she was holy. I STILL loved her in Wrath when she was almost exclusively holy until I was asked to get her tank gear almost at the end of Wrath. Regardless of the way I love the class and the toons, we were not MT's (for the most part), much the same way Holy was not the best (actually the worst...) raid healing class during BC (kinda still is and almost always has been - except when the holy light glyph was borked as all hell rofl). It's just the way the class works, much the same reason a lot of Bear tanks never tanked Tidewalker because of the RNG crushing, it would randomly wipe your attempt because the Bear got combo'd. Seen it happen after nerfs and farming it where the bear would be at 100% then 10% the next second from 3-4 crushes in the span of a second.

I'm going to have to agree with Lieris on this one (Although I think it may have been something I said that initiated this whole PROT PALY POWA PEW PEW > WOZZDOG debate during BC), I played both Paladin and Warrior through BC and knew exactly where I stood in a raid. Progression tanks were Warriors and to a slightly lesser extent Bears, Paladins were relegated to certain jobs which were by no means unimportant but they usually didn't involve crotch tanking some giant monstrous evil in the corner of a room.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Marsha » Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:06 am

I love the smell of tankatude in the morning. It smells like _________.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:50 am

Marsha wrote:I love the smell of tankatude in the morning. It smells like _________.


ooh, madlibs
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Flex » Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:54 am

Marsha wrote:I love the smell of tankatude in the morning. It smells like poutine.
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