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Alternative to the 20 second WoG

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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:18 pm

Vort wrote:This is true. To an extent. Early BC you saw very few progression guilds using Protection Paladins over Bears and Warrior tanks. The reason for this was that early BC the Paladin Tank wasn't as strong as they made them later on in the expansion (around BT I think it was they gave us some love). And let's face it, bringing a class that isn't very good for the fight isn't the way to win the encounter (COUGH! DRUIDS COUGH!). This was exactly the same case with Retribution Paladins. How many top end raiding guilds ran with a Retribution Paladin early content? Once Paladins got some minor love in these 2 trees, we saw a flux of new Tankadins and Retadins. Every guild ran with a token Ret and most guilds fielded at least 1 Protection Paladin because at that point they were on the same level as other tank classes. Sunwell really brought Paladins into the spotlight with Consecration going down no Warrior would even bother trying to peel off the Tankadin.


Wait wait wait. Hold on. This strikes me as exactly backwards. Paladin tanks were very strong early on in BC when the damage input gap was very small but fell behind circa T5, and then relegated to necessary but gimmick status in T6/Sunwell where they trivialized Hyjal trash and certain encounters like Felmyst but couldn't tank bosses.

The reason you didn't see progression guilds using Paladins early on is that they already had warriors.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby tbolt » Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:00 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:I think the point is that even a 20-second WoG is more than you had six months ago, and you were apparently happy with that. Heal tanking on a Paladin is a very new development, and not something you've played the class for years doing.


This is true, but mostly for current raids I think. Even though I'm not at all a fan of the wog spam, it does help in dungeons and old raids in the absence of our old block system and SBV that would negate complete hits.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Chicken » Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:04 pm

Well, the cycle of Paladin changes in TBC was a bit more complicated.

On release Paladins were... Okay. However, you either had good survival and bad threat or the other way around, because whoever had originally made the Paladin tanking gear hadn't gotten the message that we had Spiritual Attunement now and had a put a generous amount of mana/5 on it, and very low stamina. Once block capped this worked well enough for 5-mans though, but it was a lot squishier than either bears or warriors for raiding content to begin with.

The next patch gave the Paladin tanking gear proper amounts of stamina, and also changed the socket bonuses to offer actual tanking stats rather than even more of that useless mana/5. Paladins were at a good spot at this point, if rather annoyingly mana limited when not being constantly attacked so a bit worse for those fights which needed multiple tanks building aggro. Very potent as initial tank on a lot of fights though!

On a per tier basis, well, tier 4 was pretty good on Paladin tanks overall. Karazhan was fine for any kind of tank, as was most of the rest of the content really. I was better capable at the time of taking two channelers at Magtheridon for example than our warrior and druid tanks. Both due to holy shield providing slightly better uncrushable coverage than Shield Block did even though it only had four charges at the time, and due to simple being somewhat better at grabbing two mobs.

For tier 5 Morogrim is notable as one of those fights a lot of guilds used a Paladin for to tank the Murlocs. Whether this was in actual tanking gear or more of a mix of tanking and healing gear varied; I was one of those people who did it in full tanking gear and that worked great. Void Reaver worked best if you were the initial tank, since the way our mana worked at the time made it harder to build off-tank threat than either warriors or druid. I also usually tanked the demon at Leotheras, since Divine Shield was a nice way of buying some extra time in the final phase of the fight. Finally, Kael'thas worked well enough too. I ended up tanking most of weapons, the grand engineer, and kited the phoenixes in the latter phases.

Tier 6 was, well, special is a good word. Paladin tanks basically got into the spotlight for how good they were at tanking the Hyjal trash. That's when a lot of the WoW community stopped thinking of Paladin tanks as complete jokes (Not that they were really). Black Temple was a bit of a mixed bag, I was usually one of our flame tanks at Illidan, and I also played big parts in the Reliquary of Souls, Gurtogg Bloodboil and Shade of Akama (Trivial fight as it was) fights. Reliquary because our threat and damage were intimately linked in for the anger phase, and in the first phase because our 8 charges of Holy Shield were great for allowing us to tank that for a looong time. Gurtogg was funny because he could target Paladin tanks with Fel Rage. Illidan's flames didn't really have a particular to being tanked by a Paladin; once Holy Shield got 8 charges a Paladin that was uncrushable without relying on miss was pretty good for tanking Illidan too since there was little need to specifically time Holy Shield to Shear, which you couldn't say about Warriors. On the other hand, maintanking Mother Shahraz or Archimonde was problematic as Paladin due to fight mechanics.

Tier 6.5 (AKA Sunwell) was also a bit of a mixed bag. Felmyst is another one of those fights that caused a lot of guilds to use a Paladin tank; we were great for rounding up those skeleton adds in the flight phases. I also personally had great results tanking Brutallus, Holy Shield did some excellent damage and threat on that fight due to Brutallus's swing speed. M'uru and Kil'jaeden worked well too. I was usually our big voidwalker tank for M'uru (As I had good ranged pick up abilities), but I've heard of plenty of guilds using paladins for the smaller adds as well. As for Kil'jaeden, I usually grabbed the twisted images and did the dragon handling, plenty of time to do both of those normally. On the other hand, the Kalecgos encounter originally had some issues with Paladin tanks because Righteous Defense was only usable on people in our party or raid... So we had no way of taunting the demon off of Kalecgos, which sucked.

On a more patch related note, Paladins also were (in my eyes) a bit weaker in the weeks in between the 3.0 patch and the actual WotLK release on the threat department... Mostly because while Druids and Warriors had their threat upgraded through their shiny new talents, while we were still stuck without ShoR! That kinda sucked.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Vort » Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:30 pm

Sabindeus wrote:The reason you didn't see progression guilds using Paladins early on is that they already had warriors.


True. With valid reasons however.

Tier 3 was still broken OP (and most guilds still used it going into SSC and killed bosses with it), Horde couldn't gear paladins quickly enough to be proper tanks, and with the way the mana return worked it wasn't as reliable as we needed particularly in some boss encounters. Fear breaking was required for Nightbane (we still didn't have bloody fear ward you stupid blizzard idiots...), timing the Intimidating shout on High King worked better than unreliable #@$% totems and Thunderfury was still borked to all hell. Paladin tanks had no place early progression for Horde. Alliance may have had a slightly easier time on this due to actually having 70 Paladins for their first raids, but they simply weren't as good as Warriors or Druids by this point. Druids early on needed quest blues and greens as BiS pre-raid and they made excellent offtanks and in some cases they made amazing main tanks. I never said paladins were massive suck fail tanks that couldn't tank worth #$%@ (did, but not in the way that they were worthless in every way, we did use one on tidewalker - very useful), but they certainly weren't as good raid tanks as what was already available.

Chicken wrote:On release Paladins were... Okay. However, you either had good survival and bad threat or the other way around, because whoever had originally made the Paladin tanking gear hadn't gotten the message that we had Spiritual Attunement now and had a put a generous amount of mana/5 on it, and very low stamina. Once block capped this worked well enough for 5-mans though, but it was a lot squishier than either bears or warriors for raiding content to begin with.


100%. Paladins were NOT the best choice for big bads early on in the expac, and any progression guild is going to pick their BEST tank for that role. Much the same way a lot of guilds utilized a Bear tank for OT on Patchwerk because of the crazy high damage reduction and HP. Warriors and Druids were the BEST tanks at the time. Paladins were relegated to gimmicky stuff like Tidewalker Murlocs and other similar stuff. Hyjal and into BT brought in some changes as to how we functioned in raids and we became a much stronger tank to bring to the raid. Some fights were more beneficial for a warrior to tank, Spell Reflecting Deaden anyone? Once sunwell hit Paladins were able to just run in Consecrate and they'd win. Like Chicken pointed out, no single target taunt didn't work so well for Kalecgos.

Prot paladins had a place in BC raiding, but it wasn't in early progression.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby masterpoobaa » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:20 pm

Chicken wrote:Well, the cycle of Paladin changes in TBC was a bit more complicated.


TY for that quite in depth summary.
I first started tanking around the first patch, so I never had to deal with the mp5 socket bonus issue. Just finding enough gear to be block capped and a decent tanking weapon. GoGo spellpower enchant on my crystalforged longsword :)

I do remember how closely our threat was linked to spellpower. A simple weapon enchant and a wizard oil was the difference between struggling and a good threat lead.

Offtanking was pointless at that time due to massive OOM'age that would quickly occur.

Ahh, and the eternal question, Seal of Righteousness or Seal of Vengance.
SoR was better for frontloading of threat, but Vengance had better long term threat, provided the stacks didnt fall off.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Arianne » Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:08 pm

Dunno. My raid leader wouldn't let me tank Gruul until I had almost a full set of T4 gear and showed him a fraps of some other paladin tank doing it. :P Then I had no problems in SSC or TK or onwards.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby PsiVen » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:51 am

Karazhan was a tankadin paradise; the trouble was that the 25-man content demanded only gimmickry from paladin tanks, and most of it could be done in different ways to obviate the need for one entirely.

Tier 3 was still broken OP (and most guilds still used it going into SSC and killed bosses with it),


Well this is simply not true for tanks, anyone raid tanking still in T3 hit 70 that week and didn't have to time to collect the massive upgrades from dungeons. In fact there was a much larger surge of paladin tanks on Horde side because people were excited to use the "new" class and didn't have the same stigmas about their tanking abilities.

I spent most of TBC in a guild that was never interested in dipping into "suboptimal" far enough to use a paladin tank for MTing 25-mans that were suited to warriors, but I filled every niche that paladins were good at, including Leotheras and Vashj tank-rotation positions. It was BT/Hyjal that drove me to take a break from WoW, as once we had things on farm I was only tanking for Hyjal trash/adds, rogue duty on Council, and flame duty on Illidan. By Sunwell paladins were finally in a good place, so when I got back into the game I got to do a lot more with my new guild.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Lieris » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:02 am

Karazhan was okay for us but Nightbane and the bracers with a warrior requirement were a sign of things to come in 25 man raiding. I think we were consistently terrible through TBC but anyone who embraced our gimmick strengths and did the proper research was able to thrive. I don't think we were so much in a good place when Sunwell hit rather than without a paladin tank you would struggle on half the encounters there (Muru, Felmyst and KJ).

I kind of miss the way you'd ideally have one of every tank as part of your tank corps but at the same time I don't miss having no cooldowns, no strike abilities and having the least avoidance, HP and mitigation. We were a joke but essential just because of consecration and to a lesser extent, AS. A weird position to be in and not one I miss!
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Xfighter » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:50 am

Chicken wrote:On a more patch related note, Paladins also were (in my eyes) a bit weaker in the weeks in between the 3.0 patch and the actual WotLK release on the threat department... Mostly because while Druids and Warriors had their threat upgraded through their shiny new talents, while we were still stuck without ShoR! That kinda sucked.

I agreed with most of the rest of the post, was pretty in depth. Thing with this last statement though is yea, we were behind in terms of burst threat compared to what we were at pre-patch, you seem to forget the glory of judgement of light. Put as us tanks on any fight with some AoEmraid damage, we could strip off a warrior with minimal effort if we weren't paying attention.

I remember being the second tank on fights like supremus and najentis, where I had to actually stop hittingthe boss for prolonged periods while JoL was up, else I'd pull off the tank. ^so yea, burst threat took a hit in that patch, but overall in a fight our threat was superior to any other tank, given the fight had decent raid damage (Which most fights did). :)


On the note of the WoG CD, I have mixed feelings. Yea, it'll suck not being able to basically spam it, due to the fact that it helped out on numerous encounters. But also, with 20seconds it's still able to be timed/available for predictable spikes (nefarian electrocute, magmaw's initial mangle hit, etc)

The ideas Theck posted seem to be pretty reasonable solutions. Also, I feel like eternal glory will be changed before the patch is released, and feel as though the patch has been on the PTR for this long is because they are trying to find a better solution than a 20s perma CD on it.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Darielle » Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:01 am

I remember being the second tank on fights like supremus and najentis, where I had to actually stop hittingthe boss for prolonged periods while JoL was up, else I'd pull off the tank. ^so yea, burst threat took a hit in that patch, but overall in a fight our threat was superior to any other tank, given the fight had decent raid damage (Which most fights did).


Didn't JoL attributing to the Paladin and causing heal threat only change in like 3.0 or whichever the patch was that rolled out the 30% nerf to all raids and dungeons?

Paladins in BC weren't perfect, but we were "fine". Kara/ZA particularly were Pally heaven. Even for tanking the "big bads", Paladins were fairly decent, but I don't imagine many Paladins got the chance to really do something like tank Morogrim himself when there were Murlocs to collect. That and the stigma that was already there going into the expansion. We had other things going for us than just Consecrate - AS played a decent strength on something like Leo, for example. Being able to Bubble, output crazy wtf with the spellpower on use trinket (Ruby Serpent) and AW, Consecrate, have (if I remember right) 4 charges on HS as opposed to 2 on Shield Block, they all came into play in various situations across Tier 5 and 6.

At the same time, there were the fights/phased that were just tuned for Warriorness and never considered Paladins (or Druids for that matter) tanking them.

But then I had it pretty good because I replaced a tank who emoquit while we were learning Illidan because he didn't know he needed to be uncrittable (el oh el).
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Vort » Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:18 pm

PsiVen wrote:Well this is simply not true for tanks, anyone raid tanking still in T3 hit 70 that week and didn't have to time to collect the massive upgrades from dungeons. In fact there was a much larger surge of paladin tanks on Horde side because people were excited to use the "new" class and didn't have the same stigmas about their tanking abilities.


It was for warriors, because most (if not all) pieces of Dreadnaught were better than dungeon blues. So when the top guilds were going for progression, they didn't have multiple raid lockouts of Kara to get all their tanks fully decked. They had to do it in whatever they had, and Dreadnaught was still superior to so much of the lvl 70 items early on that it was just poor play on blizzards part. I remember killing Mag still using 2 or 3 pieces of Dreadnaught because at the head of the curve the bosses in kara or high king/gruul didn't drop my tier or random items.

This is why I say it was broken OP. If we tried to use full Wrath gear now, we'd get stomped because of the item budget. Some items like the twilight scale n stuff were borked because of blizzard not thinking too clearly, but for the most part all of the wrath gear was replaced by greens and blues from quests. A similar thing happened in Wrath where most top guilds went into naxx as soon as they could, most of them still wearing Sunwell and BT gear. These guilds were highly successful even though the instance was an utter joke, you get what I'm trying to point out. Tier3 for warriors was an AMAZING set back at 60, it wasn't a great set at 70 but it sure as hell was better than greens. Cata wasn't anything like that, we were replacing ICC heroic gear within the first dungeons and quest zone rewards. Blizzard finally itemized stuff correctly in Cata... at least better than previous expansions.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Hrobertgar » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:15 am

But they itemized cata gear to do away with green/blue/purple differences, its all based purely on ilevel now.

And some of the T11 set bonuses (i'm thinking holy pally here) looks like they were set prior to all the rotations being firmed up, and then never updated. The T11 bonus is so useless I do not go for the token drops if there is someone else that can use them main spec.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Ulrik » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:34 am

Anyway back to WoG... I had an amusing idea. Amend Sacred Duty so it will give the crit effect to WoG and SotR. Twenty sec, but high crit % for tanks.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Lightstrike » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:50 pm

I recently came back to WoW after a years break to find everything had changed, I mainly quit because i was forced into using my moonkin for raiding due to its delicious buffs, which i found pretty boring after a while..

Anyway, I digress.. when I came back I started levelling a paladin from level 1 again on a new server to get back into the swing of things, and I can't help but think that WoG was an afterthought when it came to the prot/ret side of things.. At lower levels I found out content is even further trivialised by the sheer fact I can go through an instance without needing a healer if I don't overpull. I'm not at max level yet, so forgive me for not having the experience you guys have at it, but it seems that WoG is grossly mismatched so far for prot. As far as the changes go, I would say that the suggestion by yappo seems the most reasonable, which is having the CD based on the HoPo you have accumulated. At least then it is useable every other set of hopo?

I think the real question is not about WoG, I think it is more that we need a 4th ability to use our HoPo on, perhaps somethign like sacred shield used to be? A small bubble that absorbs X amount per point of HoPo?
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Hrobertgar » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:51 pm

At higher levels there is a talent that converts any WoG overhealing (on self only) into a bubble, at a 100% rate. But most of the time if you are at or near 100% health and not expecting a big boss attack, you are probably using that WoPo for a ShotR rather than a WoG. I don't believe this talent is currently all that popular since it is rarely used, but it is available, in the 4th talent tier I think.
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