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Alternative to the 20 second WoG

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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Vort » Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:54 pm

I do believe I've posted this scenario on the boards before but in case people missed it I'll mention it again.

The way my guild does Nef is we have our MT on Ony first and then he picks up Nef in phase 3. So we're essentially swapping kinda.

Anyway, one night we're doing Nef and in Phase 3 at around 23% or thereabouts our MT dies on Nef. Our MT is a warrior so he's not pretty much just going all out threat/damage. This is from 58% down to 23%, now as soon as our MT dies Nef runs right over to me. Nef completely ignores the fact that I was tanking with SoI during phase 1, he also ignores the fact that I haven't hit him in nearly 50% of his HP. Why is this? because Vengeance is insanely overpowered as it is right now. I still had a ridiculous threat lead over all the DPS who had been bloodlust zerging Nef down for nearly 50% of his life. So after sitting on nef for about 2 minutes I had more threat on him than some of the raid who had been on him since the beginning of the encounter.

Threat should matter, but right now it REALLY doesn't. People might be QQing about WoG, but people need to realize that Vengeance is the cause of WoG being so "overpowered", it scales so insanely with Vengeance that it's pointless to use anything else. It isn't that SotR is useless, I just don't see the point in increasing my already ludicrous threat lead. This pretty much goes for all Paly tanks.

Fix the cause of the problem, don't just plug up the holes.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Tev » Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:35 am

If they are going through with the cooldown, I would prefer to see something like this;

For Prot and Ret;
WoG needs HoPo to be cast, but does not consume HoPo. 20 second cooldown imposed.

For Holy;
Same as they proposed, the cooldown is removed, WoG consumes HoPo.

This lets Ret and Prot have have their WoG heal for themselves or team mates but the cooldown is balanced by not consuming HoPo (though you still need to have the HoPo available). Holy still consumes HoPo but they don't have the cooldown.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby PsiVen » Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:51 pm

It's the requirement of Holy Power that makes WoG unreliable as a reactive ability, not the cost. It really does nothing at all to take away the "cost" like that.

I'd be quite happy with WoG as-is, with a 20 second cooldown, as long as it had no cost and was off the GCD (both from a deep Prot talent, sure). Ret making a 20s WoG work properly would require quite a buff, or some ability that for example lowers the cooldown on WoG by 2sec every time you cast TV.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby masterpoobaa » Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:07 pm

Well a patch rolled through the Oceanic servers last night/this morning.
Moderately large, around 250Mb or so.

Before work this morning I did my daily mount run of H-MgT.
Can confirm that WoG is still currently spammable. 20Sec WoG not yet implemented.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Vort » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:36 pm

masterpoobaa wrote:Can confirm that WoG is still currently spammable. 20Sec WoG not yet implemented.


And I hope it remains that way. If I wanted to play a sword and board smash smash class I'd have kept playing my warrior.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby tbolt » Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:55 pm

Shoju wrote:
masterpoobaa wrote:Make. Threat. Generation. Matter. In. Raids.

:)



This. So much this. I ran most of the raid last night in my "threat" spec. I use this spec mainly for heroics, Argaloth, thigns where Healing isn't a big deal. I was at 20+ Expertise, and 3% hit, so I'm not "gearing" for threat. I reforged a little into expertise just to try and even out my HoPo generation a little.

The result? We all know the result. My threat was just stupidly high, never an issue after the second Shield of the Righteous. Sherck, My tank healer said that I was just fine to heal, and didn't have mana problems because of it.


I'm all for this, I miss the fact that holding threat was an indicator of someone's tanking abilities. I also miss having to balance gearing for threat and survival, it seems a bit weird to miss and be dodged/parried often, yet still be so very far ahead of the dps' threat. I also miss using ShoR on a regular basis, I kinda wish it was our HoPo generator instead of CS so I could smack mobs in the face all the time. While it's nice and useful to have a heal like WoG in emergencies and old world raids, I don't like spamming it all the time and it's not a fun defensive option.

I always thought it would be interesting to change vengeance to a buff with x stacks that loses stacks when tanks takes damage and gain it when they avoid hits, reseting to its original number when one leaves combat. That way it's always there when you need it (at the beginning of the fight)and also emphasizes the need to gear for threat stats so your first few attacks actually land. The buff itself doesn't need to be the monstrous AP gain that it is now, just something that helps when DPS get geared and the rate at which it's lost and gained could be manipulated to find the sweet spot.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Vort » Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:55 pm

Personally, I like the way vengeance works right now. I just dislike the scale at which it works. I should not end up with 30,000 AP in a raid situation. It means I'm hitting as hard as actual DPS classes, and if we gear for hardcore threat generation we can pump out some serious numbers especially when it comes to AoE. I've done 27k DPS on AoE before and that's sustained. Vengeance needs to be reworked so it's not like it is right now.

Thunderfury was like an I-win button at 60, now every tank has an effective I-win button after 20 seconds of tanking a boss and it's usually any ability on their bar because it hits THAT hard.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Tev » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:27 am

PsiVen wrote:It's the requirement of Holy Power that makes WoG unreliable as a reactive ability, not the cost. It really does nothing at all to take away the "cost" like that.

I'd be quite happy with WoG as-is, with a 20 second cooldown, as long as it had no cost and was off the GCD (both from a deep Prot talent, sure). Ret making a 20s WoG work properly would require quite a buff, or some ability that for example lowers the cooldown on WoG by 2sec every time you cast TV.


I agree, but I just don't see them doing that. In any case, I think WoG is going to need a boost. At 20 seconds, WoG is just weak for prot when it doesn't crit (unless you have an insane venegence stack, but I want to factor in all aspects of play).

As an aside on pally healing, Crusade should also reduce the cast time of holy light by 33/66/100% after a kill. Would help a bit with pally self healing (and some degree PvP healing), while remaining situational and not overpowering.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Flex » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:46 am

Vort wrote:
masterpoobaa wrote:Can confirm that WoG is still currently spammable. 20Sec WoG not yet implemented.


And I hope it remains that way. If I wanted to play a sword and board smash smash class I'd have kept playing my warrior.


So you specifically rolled a Paladin post 4.0 so you could heal tank?
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby masterpoobaa » Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:33 pm

Feels kinda that way somedays.
Whenever I run normal dungeons I inevitably find myself doing top dps, top interrupts and top dispels.

May as well aim for top Healing too :P
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Skye1013 » Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:54 am

masterpoobaa wrote:Feels kinda that way somedays.
Whenever I run normal dungeons I inevitably find myself doing top dps, top interrupts and top dispels.

May as well aim for top Healing too :P

You should just solo the dungeons then :D
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Vort » Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:53 pm

Flex wrote:So you specifically rolled a Paladin post 4.0 so you could heal tank?


This paladin has been around since BC. As far as I remember Paladins couldn't tank for $#@% early BC. The entire reason I enjoy playing a Paladin now is the utility and function you have in a raid as a support tank. Call it whatever you want but I preferred tanking on my Paladin from Wrath onwards. 4.0 had NOTHING to do with it and 4.0 was around for a while before I was coerced back into the game.

Like I said, if I wanted to just smash stuff with my shield I'd have stayed with the warrior. Personally I prefer the support and function of the Paladin class.
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Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:36 am

Vort wrote:
Flex wrote:So you specifically rolled a Paladin post 4.0 so you could heal tank?


This paladin has been around since BC. As far as I remember Paladins couldn't tank for $#@% early BC.

Dude this very site was started when 2.0 was released to dispel that myth.

The entire reason I enjoy playing a Paladin now is the utility and function you have in a raid as a support tank. Call it whatever you want but I preferred tanking on my Paladin from Wrath onwards. 4.0 had NOTHING to do with it and 4.0 was around for a while before I was coerced back into the game.

Like I said, if I wanted to just smash stuff with my shield I'd have stayed with the warrior. Personally I prefer the support and function of the Paladin class.


:/
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Vort » Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:05 pm

Sabindeus wrote:Dude this very site was started when 2.0 was released to dispel that myth.


This is true. To an extent. Early BC you saw very few progression guilds using Protection Paladins over Bears and Warrior tanks. The reason for this was that early BC the Paladin Tank wasn't as strong as they made them later on in the expansion (around BT I think it was they gave us some love). And let's face it, bringing a class that isn't very good for the fight isn't the way to win the encounter (COUGH! DRUIDS COUGH!). This was exactly the same case with Retribution Paladins. How many top end raiding guilds ran with a Retribution Paladin early content? Once Paladins got some minor love in these 2 trees, we saw a flux of new Tankadins and Retadins. Every guild ran with a token Ret and most guilds fielded at least 1 Protection Paladin because at that point they were on the same level as other tank classes. Sunwell really brought Paladins into the spotlight with Consecration going down no Warrior would even bother trying to peel off the Tankadin.

I never said we couldn't tank, we just weren't favorable compared to the other 2 tanks at the time.

Sabindeus wrote::/


Well it's true, I enjoy being able to do more than just smack a target - which might be why I don't like DPSing very much.
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Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:12 pm

I think the point is that even a 20-second WoG is more than you had six months ago, and you were apparently happy with that. Heal tanking on a Paladin is a very new development, and not something you've played the class for years doing.
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