Remove Advertisements

4.1 PTR

Anything, including off-topic posts

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby Dashdar » Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:57 pm

Aanar wrote:
Making a dungeon that uses 5 dps is the best idea I've seen.


Thanks

Aanar wrote:The only "trouble" I could see is if it turned into the easy-mode and everyone switched to queueing as dps for their vp hoping to get it, you'd end up with the whole thing skewed toward the 0-0-5 dungeon. And if there was only one instance and you got it half the time you queue'd as dps, it would get pretty old.


Very true. But, if you had a 1-1-3 and a 0-0-5 you now have options. So if the times got long for one, you could always switch to the other.

But that's why I would think not making them separately queue-able would be the better idea. Queue as DPS and you can get into a DPS only or a Trinity. it'll just be random. Or, you could have the DPS only only kick in when the average wait time reacher a specific amount of time.
User avatar
Dashdar
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:12 am

Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby lythac » Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:01 pm

Something that could happen is to allow Hunters/Locks/Mages pets to be able to tank 5 man dungeons.

"I don't want a pet tanking a dungeon! PvP issues!!"

Yes that wouldn't be too great. Have it so the player takes direct control over their pet and making the character a pet.
Ryshad / Lythac of <Heretic> Nagrand-EU
User avatar
lythac
Moderator
 
Posts: 2672
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:10 am

Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby Aerron » Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:04 pm

lythac wrote:Something that could happen is to allow Hunters/Locks/Mages pets to be able to tank 5 man dungeons.

"I don't want a pet tanking a dungeon! PvP issues!!"

Yes that wouldn't be too great. Have it so the player takes direct control over their pet and making the character a pet.


There's a couple options out there with the other classes. Hunter/Warlock pet tanks wouldn't be too bad, but you'd have to have some sort of upside for taking a Real Human Player tank or else there's going to be an issue there.

Shaman too ... I mean they gave them an actual Taunt, and Rockbiter weapon whose sole purpose is Threat ... maybe they could come up with some way they could actually USE them other than once in a blue moon on specific raid bosses and the like.
Aerron
 
Posts: 475
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:33 pm
Location: Richmond, VA

Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby Thornir » Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:07 pm

Edit: Snarky post because I'm hungry. Nothing to see here.
Last edited by Thornir on Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Many fall, but one remains. - The Stranger
Men are but flesh and blood. They know their doom, but not the hour. - Patrick Stewart
Thornir

*Now with 100% more beef!*
User avatar
Thornir
 
Posts: 621
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2008 6:25 pm
Location: In some sewers beneath a prison somewhere

Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby Aanar » Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:08 pm

lythac wrote:Something that could happen is to allow Hunters/Locks/Mages pets to be able to tank 5 man dungeons.


It would help a little, but I'm pretty certain that it wouldn't make a significant impact. I think the whole DK thing proved that. (Adding a tanking class didn't really change the % of the wow population playing a tank role very much) Tanking seems to be more about not wanting to do it than not having enough classes that can do it.

I'd be fine with it so my hunter didn't have to wait to get a group :-)
Aanar
 
Posts: 201
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:26 am

Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby Aanar » Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:11 pm

Thornir wrote:In which case, you get the same problem as Oculus before the change. "LOL this isn't the easy instance, peace nubs!"


Yeah I supose so, but since it's just 5x dps, you'd instantly replace anyone that dropped. And if all 4 people ditched out on you, the dps queue would be near-instant anyway (because the server would make as many 0-0-5 instances as needed to gobble up the extra dps, just like it currently makes as many 1-1-3 groups to gobble up all available tanks).

It's not like you can just requeue till you get a 1-1-3 because the deserter debuff would make you wait 30 min each time.
Aanar
 
Posts: 201
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:26 am

Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby lythac » Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:18 pm

Aanar wrote:
lythac wrote:Something that could happen is to allow Hunters/Locks/Mages pets to be able to tank 5 man dungeons.


It would help a little, but I'm pretty certain that it wouldn't make a significant impact. I think the whole DK thing proved that. (Adding a tanking class didn't really change the % of the wow population playing a tank role very much) Tanking seems to be more about not wanting to do it than not having enough classes that can do it.

I'd be fine with it so my hunter didn't have to wait to get a group :-)


Part of that mentality is requiring to build up a 2nd set of gear/read up on fancy stuff.

Just have the pets armor/avoidance/hp scale off of the owners ilvl (who cares if they boost it - this is 5 man dungeons) and give them a vehicle action bar that has 6 abilities on it.
Ryshad / Lythac of <Heretic> Nagrand-EU
User avatar
lythac
Moderator
 
Posts: 2672
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:10 am

Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby Aanar » Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:34 pm

lythac wrote: Part of that mentality is requiring to build up a 2nd set of gear/read up on fancy stuff.


So you'd have the same problem of hunters/locks having to read up on how to use their 6 button bar. They'd have the same problems new tanks face - learning which mobs to mark for cc, when to cc, when you don't need to, positioning bosses, interrupting, grabbing loose mobs, making sure your healer doesn't get agro, how to put threat on 2+ mobs when you're dps isn't focus firing even if you mark skull, etc. Sure you'd have some that would have a blast doing it. But just like adding DKs didn't fix the tank shortage, this sure isn't going to fix it (though it would help a little).

I really don't think a 2nd gear set is the issue. Between rep gear, JP gear, and just use your dps gear or 318 quest gear for remaining slots you can put together a good enough set for 5 mans.

Heck I see plenty of of cats in 5 mans when you can easily switch to bear for a 5 man, no 2nd gear set required. (The difference between optimizing your gear for bear vs cat is only some extr hp, and about -5% damage taken)
Aanar
 
Posts: 201
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:26 am

Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby Aanar » Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:58 pm

Adding a dungeon that took 5 dps instead of the standard 1-1-3 would definetly fix the queue time for dps. The server that decides which dungeon you get as a random would simply create as many 1-1-3 dungeons until it ran out of tanks, then create as many 0-0-5 ones till it ran out of dps, leaving healers with the longest queue. (assuming of course the % of people queing for each role wouldn't change much from currently).

To me, I think the only real callenge would be how to design a *good* dungeon for a 5x dps group that wouldn't be completely gimicky or completly trivial if you had 5 dps, but you happen to get someone that could switch to heal spec and one that could switch to tank spec after getting in the dungeon.

You could do it with vehicles of course ala occulus, but we all know how much people loved that :roll: You could make it like the faction champ "boss" of toc. :? You could make it a shooting gallery. (snoozefest?). You could make it like escape from durn where Thrall could tank a lot of it (memory is a little fuzzy since it's been so long since I've done it andthen only once or twice).

Let's consider some constraits. I think vehicles are out for widespread use because people want to play their class, not some simple 3 button thing.

Constraints w/o a healer
Are the mobs a credible threat to killing someone? If yes, it's too much of an advantage to have someone that can clutch heal (moonkin, elemental, spriest) or outright change to a heal spec. If they're not a credible threat, you either have a snooze fest, or you are left making a different failure mechanism. Enrage timers are tough when first released, but irrelevent when the typical group eventually will overgear the place.

I'm not sure what you're left with. I can only think of putting in an NPC healer or else something like this:

Make an instance where the mobs don't significantly hurt your hp bar but instead their attacks put an undispellable debuff on you that once it stacks to 100 (or whatever) you die (or fall asleep / are knocked out). Make it wear-off when out of combat. Make the challenge in avoiding their attacks (cc, kite melee) and in spreading them around so no one person gets too many. All this really is in effect is a HP bar by another name. Alternatively you could simply put in a zone-wide healing debuff and stick to the HP bars already in place. Probably beter so you dont need to tweak ui to show how many stacks each group member has. You'd still have the dps specs that still have a taunt button have an advantage in being able to more easily pull off someone in trouble.

Constraints w/o a tank
If the mobs do enough melee damage to be dangerous, someone that can switch to tank spec is too much of an advantage due to tanks damage reduction. Magic damage isn't as lop-sided, so you'd have to make most of the damage magic. You'd have the problem of groups with resists (pal, shaman, ?) vs those that don't. So you'd have to make it unresistable or not make a significant difference. You always have at least one interrupt from your tank, so you'd either have to make interrupts unnecessary, or make the group maker ensure you had at least someone that could interrupt (and we all know how frustrating it was before when the only person you had in the group w/ a 10 sec interrupt is the dumb&^* pug rogue/dk/etc that never manages to do it well). Without a tank, I think it would feel too much like pvp.

What does that leave?
Someone mentioned an escort. I think that could be doable. Make most of the mobs focus on the escort NPC and have no agro table to taunt. You could do things like make some mobs that cc the group and some that really need to be interrupted to keep it interesting.


The more that I think about it, trying to make a 0-0-5 dungeon (and more down the road) might be too much. I think you could make a couple good ones, but so many current mechanics don't seem workable in that setting leaving you with a lot of recycling of the mechanics that do or using mechanics like vehicles that aren't popular.

Return of 10 man dungeons?
Now that I think about it, you could acheive similar results (of widening the ratio of tanks:dps, and tanks: healers that can be accodated) by bringing back 10 man dungeons. For example adding one designed for a 1-1-8 comp and one for a 1-2-8 comp should give the group maker enough levers to absorb a lot of extra healers and dps. You might not eliminate the dps wait time, but upping the dps:tank ratio from 3:1 to 7/8:1 should really help.

Personally, I don't really find the wait for dps to be that big of deal. It's so much better than waiting in a city for an hour+ hoping to get a group together. Now at least you can afk, alt-tab, go farm, do dailies, whatever.
Aanar
 
Posts: 201
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:26 am

Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby halabar » Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:20 pm

Aanar wrote:Personally, I don't really find the wait for dps to be that big of deal. It's so much better than waiting in a city for an hour+ hoping to get a group together. Now at least you can afk, alt-tab, go farm, do dailies, whatever.


And that's why I generally try to have one gathering profession on dps toons. But the botters are making that to be worthless now.
Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.
User avatar
halabar
 
Posts: 9376
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:21 am
Location: <in the guild that shall not be named>

Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby Hokahey » Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:44 am

All this talk about unconventional instances sparked an idea. Bear with me.

The instance is a faction base (Earthen Ring, perhaps). The opposing force is a single group of 5 of the greatest heroes that could be assembled by whoever (Twilight's Hammer, perhaps). They consist of the standard 1-1-3 combo, with one of the DPS as a "wild card" hybrid with special utilities. They are interruptable, snareable, and CC-able, but they have abilities like this they can use on the players. Additionally, both the enemy wild card and healer characters might have special abilities they can use to break CC on themselves and remove it from other enemy characters. The tank wouldn't do very much damage, but would be very difficult to control and have an array of disruptive abilities themselves (and do more damage as he takes more damage). The DPS would have CC effects, and do lots of damage, naturally, but be the easier enemies to control/kill. The healer would be a pretty much unstoppable healing machine with ridiculous amounts of mana, and an insane variety of buffs and heals, as well as some minor defensive effects of their own if sufficiently endangered.

They are far too powerful for the player's group to face head on all by themselves, and their aggro table would be modeled on that for for the Faction Champs in ToC. They start at one end of the instance, the players at the other. Any time they spend out of combat, they will be restoring their mana and HP to full.

The instance has 3 or 4 "bosses" who are friendly to the players, and a horde of player-friendly, non-elite NPCs (perhaps just weaker elites) scattered throughout the instance. For each boss the players successfully defend, they receive rewards. The player-friendly NPCs would have roughly standard aggro tables.

The opposing force moves through the instance steadily, and will pretty easily annihilate the weaker NPCs. They will stop periodically for mana/hp breaks. The more mana/hp they have when they arrive at a boss, the longer it will take to force them to give up on the boss. The friendly NPCs will assist players by healing them, and attacking the opposition. The bosses may even provide a buff of some type that puts the players closer to on par with the opposition while the opposition attacks that boss. Possibly, with each boss they kill, the opposition gains a buff, say "Confidence", that increases their ability to survive and deal damage (shouldn't be overwhelming to the point an early failure dooms the group).

EDIT- Better idea for Confidence. The enemies start off at 0, but gain it as they kill players or player-friendly NPCs. They lose it as the healer or DPS get attacked. Letting it stack up to 100 makes them near unstoppable, and there are more than enough NPCs between bosses to let them reach 100 if they aren't interfered with.

Once the hostile NPCs reach a certain breakpoint of mana/hp at a boss, they'll decide they can't win, and move on. The players have a different path (or perhaps a teleporter pad gets activated?) they can use to get back ahead of the opposition.

At the final boss, if unsuccessful thus far, the opposition will be desperate to the point they will either kill the boss and the players, or die trying.

This *could* be a recipe for an instance that requires neither a healer or a tank (and you really may not even want one), but still provides a challenge. I like the idea, and I could see Blizzard having a lot of fun with NPC dialogue.
Hokahey
 
Posts: 863
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:42 am

Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby RedAces » Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:15 am

hey,

the problem with 0-0-5 dungeons are the left-out Healers and Tanks... if they want to experience this dungeon (and get achievments / loot) they have to respecc... and have sufficient gear (and skill) for this specc. Thats not going to happen. You can tweak current dungeons to offer a npc tank (or healer) if you're group has none, but it should also be completable with a normal 1 - 1 - 3 group.

Bye, RedAces.
Image
User avatar
RedAces
 
Posts: 500
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:39 am
Location: Germany

Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby Chicken » Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:31 am

I agree with RedAces. It definitely solves the queue time problem, but there's various issues with it being a specific dungeon or an instance type you can specifically choose to queue for.

If it's a specific dungeon you'll run into the issue where most DPS that queue will most often get that one specific dungeon; it works for those who are reward-motivated (So anyone who is in it primarily for the VP), but is going to be lousy for anyone who is experience-motivated (People who queue randoms for the fun of it: I personally fall into that group). Plus of course, some people want to see all content on offer, and may prefer not doing so as a damage dealer.

If it's an instance type you can queue for, you run into the issue RedAces outlines: It'll be guaranteed to have near instantaneous queues for anyone joining it, since it just needs 5 people wanting to join to be immediately able to grab a group... But only if you play as the damage dealing role, and the instantaneous queues mean that most DPS players will queue for this new instance type. The majority of the playerbase may be DPS, but that doesn't mean you should alienate those who don't want to DPS.

It would most likely work well if a system for it were implemented for all dungeons and it was just part of the standard queue however. You'd want a small additional modification to it though: You'd want it to allow not just 1-1-3 and 0-0-5 as group compositions, but also 1-0-4 and 0-1-4 to keep queue times smooth for everyone; at that point it should be pretty close to allowing the system to always put together a group of five people once five people have queued.

That'd be a later change to make to reduce queue times however: It's going to be a lot of effort to design and balance properly. The goodie bag solution Blizzard is trying now is much simpler to make. Just check what's rare, offer goodie bag to people wanting to finish dungeons with that spec.
Image
User avatar
Chicken
 
Posts: 1597
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby Malthrax » Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:14 am

Every tank-capable toon has a DPS offspec.
Every heal-capable toon has a DPS offspec.

All tanks are capable of doing "passable" DPS, in tank spec, and with tank gear.
All healers are capable of doing "passable" DPS, in healing spec, and with healing gear.


I don't see a need for the hypothetical 0-0-5 instance to have dedicated support modes for 1-0-4, 0-1-4, or 1-1-3 group comps. A tank or a healer coming along for the ride would just be a "really crappy DPS" - and we already know 5-mans can be completed with up to THREE of those, currently.
User avatar
Malthrax
 
Posts: 726
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:23 am

Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby RedAces » Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:21 am

hey,

Malthrax wrote:Every tank-capable toon has a DPS offspec.
Every heal-capable toon has a DPS offspec.


False!

Malthrax wrote:Every tank-capable CLASS has a DPS offspec.
Every heal-capable CLASS has a DPS offspec.


Fixed!

I know a few Raider that have dual Tankspeccs, a threat-centric and a survival-centric specc. (e.g. Warriors have an AE-Specc and an survivalspecc). (Or a tank who has a heal as offspecc like me during the majority of WotLK).
So you'll ask them to respecc and acquire new gear (incl. top-notch enchants etc.)... because nobody wants a mediocre dps, that wears full holydin or full tankgear in a supposedly hard heroic. And you'll force them play a specc which they might not enjoy (I hated Ret pre4.0...)

Bye, RedAces.
Image
User avatar
RedAces
 
Posts: 500
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:39 am
Location: Germany

PreviousNext

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest