4.1 PTR

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Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby thegreatheed » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:36 am

yappo wrote:
Now, as for the very little raiding I DO see. Being able to tell the healer to care about the raid and forget me because I'll handle myself is ALSO retarded.

That's not how it works. AT ALL. For a main tank on a progression type boss, WoG + SoI + LoH + Radiance usually accounts for about 30% of the total healing the tank took during the whole fight. Under no circumstances can a tank tell the healer to forget him. What WoG spec does is allow the healer to save a significant amount of mana while healing the tank and/or heal the raid.
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Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby Shoju » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:39 am

thegreatheed wrote:[sarcasm] Roll a warrior[/sarcasm].

I loved the flavor change of WoG/SoI tanking. In wrath, we were warriors with a static rotation. In 4.0, we were PALADIN tanks. All paladin specs should have a healing flavor. Just like ret has Divine Storm, which heals, and selfless healer, which props up more healing. I don't want to be a warrior in pink/purple/yellow armor. I want to be a paladin.


I want to be a paladin as well, and I have no problem with self healing to an extent. The problem with Self healing, (which I have stated since Beta), is that it is going to prove impossible to balance well. I would love if Holy Radiance was a more Prot friendly button. Yes, There are times when it is great, and I love it. But Holy Radiance type heals, and Divine Guardian, and Hand of Sacrifice just seem "more paladin flavored" to me, and easier to balance in game terms.

*and the sarcasm isn't too far off. I have rolled a warrior, and I'm currently in the process of getting it to 85. If Paladins don't get better in 4.1, I'm going to take a long hard look at my DK and Warrior, and change tank classes.

Flex wrote:Heal tanking is my least favorite thing about the first iteration of Cataclysm paladin tanking design


This is where I'm at. Heal tanking is just such a "meh" idea to me. They were so worried about giving us a 3s CS because we would try and keep INQ and HS up at the same time, when WoG was the true winner in that scenario. And then, they tied HS to all three abilities.

It took me a long time to actually get a WoG spec, and keep it. I bounced around from WoG to pure threat specs, until I decided to just dump the ret spec and have both.

Don't laugh too hard at telling the healer to back off on you and focus on the raid. In our atramedes attempts last night, I lasted 1m + with WoG spam on a wiped pull just seeing how long I could go. There is no way that I could keep myself up the whole fight, but man... it felt silly to be able to go that long. I don't think any tank should be able to account for 30% of their healing on a fight.
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Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:41 am

Shoju wrote:Don't laugh too hard at telling the healer to back off on you and focus on the raid. In our atramedes attempts last night, I lasted 1m + with WoG spam on a wiped pull just seeing how long I could go.

But Atramedes hits like a girl and 90% of his actual damage is avoidable by everyone, including the tank. Try that shit on Cho'gall and let me know how it goes.
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Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby PsiVen » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:46 am

Hopefully we will actually get something nice for using ShoR, or even better, some incentive to use hit rating. I don't have a problem with WoG become a cooldown, as long as they balance properly around it (as it stands, it would have to be twice as powerful as Death Strike to make any sense).

Honestly I don't use SoI/WoG spam a whole lot anymore in 10s, because it hurts DPS too much. When I do use it, it's in short bursts -- so I'm all for it become a powerful heal/shield only every 20s.

I'm more concerned about the Divine Guardian nerf, which as far as I can tell just encourages 25s to stack more paladins on Nef and 10s to go fuck themselves.
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Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby Vanifae » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:52 am

I for one am happy to see WoG tanking die a not-so-quiet death.
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Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby thegreatheed » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:54 am

Shoju wrote: I don't think any tank should be able to account for 30% of their healing on a fight.


Don't roll a DK then. They self heal more than we do.

Just keeping things in perspective. This isn't a self healing problem. Because DKs self heal more than us. If self healing were truly the boogeyman, they'd be nerfed as well. It's the fact that we can ignore everything besides healing and function just fine. But I think Blizzard is nerfing the wrong thing. They need to nerf vengeance, not self healing. They need to incentivize tanks to equip and focus on anything other than survival.

My warrior co-tank does the same thing, he has about 1.5% hit and 10 expertise or so, and stacks mastery. He has no threat issues after the first 20 seconds, so any threat gear and threat talents are only useful for 20 seconds.

Vengeance is the issue, not self healing. If Blizzard made threat matter, then we couldn't WoG every cooldown, out of necessity. Instead of posing artificial limitations, they should balance vengeance.
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Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby theckhd » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:55 am

thegreatheed wrote:That's not how it works. AT ALL. For a main tank on a progression type boss, WoG + SoI + LoH + Radiance usually accounts for about 30% of the total healing the tank took during the whole fight. Under no circumstances can a tank tell the healer to forget him. What WoG spec does is allow the healer to save a significant amount of mana while healing the tank and/or heal the raid.

Sabindeus wrote:But Atramedes hits like a girl and 90% of his actual damage is avoidable by everyone, including the tank. Try that shit on Cho'gall and let me know how it goes.


I think you guys are severely underestimating his point. It's common practice for our MT or myself to say "Popping GaNK, don't worry about me" when there's heavy raid healing going on. For example, near the end of the Elementium Monstrosity phase, or during P3 Cho'Gall. SoI + Wog Spam + Beacon + 18 seconds of 50% damage intake + assorted other procs and cooldowns (trinkets, glove armor, maybe a DP) is incredibly powerful if you're coordinated and know what you're doing.


Cema wrote:For the first time in 4 years Blizzard gave us the possibility to have a real gameplay, with the 4.01 we were able to choose the spell we wanted to use instead of always pushing the same 5 buttons in the same rotation. We had a rotation for aoe with healing, a rotation for full aoe threat, a rotation for single target with healing, a rotation for single target with dps and we were able to switch during a fight.


And yet, on difficult content we use only one of those rotations, which is WoG. We still have all of those rotations available, we just don't have the ability to abuse a broken healing implementation.

I don't count "spam your self-heal over and over" as "real gameplay." It's certainly no more interesting than "spam SotR on the boss," and truth be told I have a lot more fun smashing shields into people's faces.
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Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:03 am

theckhd wrote:I think you guys are severely underestimating his point. It's common practice for our MT or myself to say "Popping GaNK, don't worry about me" when there's heavy raid healing going on. For example, near the end of the Elementium Monstrosity phase, or during P3 Cho'Gall. SoI + Wog Spam + Beacon + 18 seconds of 50% damage intake + assorted other procs and cooldowns (trinkets, glove armor, maybe a DP) is incredibly powerful if you're coordinated and know what you're doing.


Well sure if you pop GAnK that's an entirely different story... a story that lasts 12 seconds. Well, 12 seconds for me anyway. If you have crazy Tier set bonuses then that's cool I suppose. Personally on Cho'gall I save GAnK for Fury when our other tank has used his cooldowns on the previous Fury.

Also you have Beacon which I guess is pretty nice but also totally different from my experience since I have no Paladin healer. I guess instead I get Lifebloom.

Theck I know your guild is more progressed than mine and your perspective may be quite different, but I still think that claiming WoG makes you fully self sufficient is a little ridiculous on content suited to your gear level. I have to wonder if you can pull any of those shenanigans off on the Heroic mode bosses?
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Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby thegreatheed » Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:08 am

theckhd wrote:
And yet, on difficult content we use only one of those rotations, which is WoG. We still have all of those rotations available, we just don't have the ability to abuse a broken healing implementation.



Which is why they need to not nerf WoG, they need to balance Vengeance. Make the choice meaningful. Having the option to nerf threat and WoG spam only works when you lose something.

Vengeance is the issue.
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Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby Shoju » Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:12 am

Sabindeus wrote:
Shoju wrote:Don't laugh too hard at telling the healer to back off on you and focus on the raid. In our atramedes attempts last night, I lasted 1m + with WoG spam on a wiped pull just seeing how long I could go.

But Atramedes hits like a girl and 90% of his actual damage is avoidable by everyone, including the tank. Try that shit on Cho'gall and let me know how it goes.



Theck made my point, but ask yourself this. With only the use of a 20% damage reduction cooldown, and 2 eng tinkers (was the only things not on cooldown), and normal rotation, could a warrior last 1m with girly atramedes hitting him? I don't think they could. I could be wrong, but I just don't see it happening.

I (like theck) don't find WoG to be interactive game play. I don't have a problem with every 20 seconds or so saying, Oh hey! I can hit WoG. And the rest of the time, I'm bashing my shield into the dragons face.

Personally, I was hoping that SoI would get a threat reduction modifier to just drive the final nail in the Coffin. SoI/WoG tanking is not anymore interesting game play than what we had in wrath.

We do this
Then this
Then that again
Then this
Then that again
Then we heal.

Its no different than having a static rotation, because the best survivability rotation was static.


but I still think that claiming WoG makes you fully self sufficient is a little ridiculous on content suited to your gear level. I have to wonder if you can pull any of those shenanigans off on the Heroic mode bosses?


I'm not saying that it makes you totally self sufficient, that was someone else. I am saying that 30% of the healing done to me in a raid encounter being done by myself is just as ludicrous. It exacerbates the healer mana "mattering" problem, and (if it hasn't already) will lead to a gap between the tanks that are mana friendly, and the tanks that aren't. Even if the tank that isn't mana friendly takes less damage, the tank who covers more damage with self heals will be preferred as long as the choice is mana positive to the healer.
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Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby Flex » Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:15 am

The Divine Guardian change currently is in a vacuum but taken in context of them out right stating that they will be giving healing druids and shaman some sort of cooldown makes it less annoying.

All tanks bring something now: DKs glyphed Rune Tap or whatever. Paladins DG, Warriors raid last stand and Druids healing on crit. Soon all healers will bring something.
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Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby yappo » Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:23 am

I may have failed to communicate the point that I see very little raiding in the first place. However, there are definitely phases where I'll handle my own self-healing and tell the heaöer to stay off me. This may or may not be a problem.

I have, however, found an ENTIRELY different problem with the WoG-nerf as suggested on the PTR-notes, and this is, in my opinion, a huge problem.

From what I can see we're getting hemmed into the "One spec to rule them all" -corner again. I fail to see how we can swap around more than four talent points to our liking, and that includes NOT considering 2/2 PoJ mandatory. Those would be Eye for an Eye versus Improved Judgement, and PoJ versus filling Hallowed Ground, picking up the discarded pick of EfaE/IJ or dropping one or two points into the holy tree.

Have I missed something here?
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Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby sculder » Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:23 am

Sabindeus wrote:
Shoju wrote:Don't laugh too hard at telling the healer to back off on you and focus on the raid. In our atramedes attempts last night, I lasted 1m + with WoG spam on a wiped pull just seeing how long I could go.

But Atramedes hits like a girl and 90% of his actual damage is avoidable by everyone, including the tank. Try that shit on Cho'gall and let me know how it goes.


The best WOG moment i've had was our first heroic halion kill wherein I lasted almost a minute tanking the shadow realm with no healer, as everyone was running around in the other realm screaming about battle resses and ankhs. I miss those days :(
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Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby Chunes » Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:29 am

Sabindeus wrote:I have to wonder if you can pull any of those shenanigans off on the Heroic mode bosses?


From the heroics I've attempted and or killed, chimaeron being the exception, you can't. Damage output even in 10's is high enough that even with a fully optimized wog spam your tank is still going to get shit on.

Either way, I still think it's a pretty contrived point to say that wog is OP because on a few bosses you can increase your TTL when in a wipe situation. Sure, if I chain my CD's wog on cooldown and then blow LoH at then end I could probably out last any other tank in an equivalent "we're wiping so let's just see how long i can live" sort of situation," but what does that prove? I know that wasn't the argument verbatim expressed above, but for hyperbole's sake...

The one thing I will miss though about wog spam was that for our first progression kills in normal mode, WoG did alleviate the healers some, but only when used strategically in clutch moments of the fight.

A good example would be magmaw's chew/rodeo/mangle phase. On our first attempts, after threat was established, I actively saved 3HoPo wogs for when I was getting chomped on. For those that say "we'll have to sit on 3HoPo and use WoG as a mini CD AND THAT'S UNACCEPTABLY SUB OPTIMAL RAWR", I just have to remind you that after 20 seconds, threat doesn't mean shit. Sit on your HoPo and be smart about living, it's not that big of a deal.
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Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby Flex » Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:35 am

Chunes wrote:Either way, I still think it's a pretty contrived point to say that wog is OP because on a few bosses you can increase your TTL when in a wipe situation.


I think Darielle nails it mostly as to why WoG needs changing.

DKs are designed to take more damage and counters that via Death Strike and Mastery.
Paladins on the other hand take similar damage to other tanks without WoG usage and any WoG usage is gravy on top of that. So the obvious solutions are nerf baseline paladin damage reduction or nerf WoG.
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