4.1 PTR

[Meloree]

We got to wait till the definitive patch for WoG.
It may or may not make it, we'll have to see.

Obviously if this makes it to live, I'm going to revise my spec a bit as right now i'm using WoG spec myself.

EG may be dead for prot with the change, but GbtL won't be. This, in some ways, just encourages what was already the best way of using WoG - as a survival cooldown for the bad times. It's just got a 20s cooldown now, instead of 9-15.

WoG changes for prot are absolutely necessary, imo, and I'm glad they're doing it. DG is pretty powerful, too, and probably did need adjustments. Raid cooldowns in general are a little bit too strong right now, one tends to raid-stack very aggressively for them.

[Darielle]

and then people are going to complain that "paladin tanks do too much DPS - nerf nerf nerf!!"

Lol?

Yes, I agree, but DK's use Death Strike no matter what, so you can't say "we dont take DS heals/shield into consideration". And the heal is bigger than WoG by far, and about the absorb, I am not sure it's not competitive or even better on single target scenario. And that got fixed even more by changing the behavior of the DS shield so that it stacks and dosnt replace the old one. So yeah, Death Strike heals/absorbs are there, one way or another, while WoG will not be there in a few weeks/months.

That's why I mentioned that they take more damage, and the DS healing offsets that to keep them roughly equal. Our healing puts us ahead, so they're hitting our healing which they don't want us to be continually doing.

I'll repeat the conclusion - we don't need compensation, because without WoG we seem to be roughly on par with the other tanks who are roughly on par with each other.

[DexterBelgium]

I guess this is a worthwhile fix... I would just rather NOT heal myself at all. I want to tank, not be a half tank half healer....

On the other hand, that's imho precisely what separates us from the other tanks, and is also a beautiful nod to the lore. I love healing myself rather than just activating "generic dmg absorb".

BTW: from what I can see of the PTR notes on MMO, they're tying the CD of WoG to mastery for Holy. That does not bode well for any reduction of the CD for us via talents.

They really need to adjust a number of talents then, because (as you will all remember) WoG started out as being perceived as useless, and will likely go back to that if this makes it to live. That means I really have to puzzle to find 31 Prot Talents (as the trees stand) that I don't absolutely hate the guts out of (HG, SotP I'm looking at you guys!). EG needs to be moved to the holy tree then.

Also: damn, there goes Prot Pally PvP.

[theckhd]

Raid cooldowns in general are a little bit too strong right now, one tends to raid-stack very aggressively for them.

I have no idea what you are talking about. We totally brought 5 paladins to our first Nef10 kill by accident. Honest. It had nothing to do with having 2 DGs, 2 AM's, and 5 Holy Radiances to abuse.

/snicker

[Gracerath]

Yes, I agree, but DK's use Death Strike no matter what, so you can't say "we dont take DS heals/shield into consideration". And the heal is bigger than WoG by far, and about the absorb, I am not sure it's not competitive or even better on single target scenario. And that got fixed even more by changing the behavior of the DS shield so that it stacks and dosnt replace the old one. So yeah, Death Strike heals/absorbs are there, one way or another, while WoG will not be there in a few weeks/months.

You're comparing the wrong things, though. Death Strike/mastery is there as a similarity to a shield tank's ability to block. DK's and druids don't have a 30k heal to press that can target anyone in your group/raid Well, Bloodworms is pretty amazing but is RNG and rune tap glyph is 5% health to your party every 30s. But I digress.

I would agree that some changes could be made with talents since there were several to prop up the use of word of glory for prot.

As always though, it is WAY too soon to really get up in arms over changes

[Worldie]

Raid cooldowns in general are a little bit too strong right now, one tends to raid-stack very aggressively for them.

I have no idea what you are talking about. We totally brought 5 paladins to our first Nef10 kill by accident. Honest. It had nothing to do with having 2 DGs, 2 AM's, and 5 Holy Radiances to abuse.

/snicker

Did someone say Halfius.

[Darielle]

Heroic Magmaw = teh ouch too.

[Worldie]

Wasn't there just a few days ago, a blue post mentioning the fact that Priests and Paladins raid cooldowns were too powerful as well

[Darielle]

I think that was something along the lines of cooldowns being awesome so they would try and give Shaman and Druids something as well?

[Beefchief]

DG was pretty OP for the 10man Nef, so this nerf was predictable. As for WoG on a 20 second cooldown, I can't see that affecting tanking too much. However, I loved the idea that we had a choice of what to do with our new Holy Power mechanic, and it's one of the new elements that kept Pally tanking fun. At least give an AoE or 3-targets-in-front ability that uses Holy Power so I get a semblance of choice again.

The other problem with this nerf is how ridiculous Pally threat is going to tower over the DPS once again - Blizzard likes the ratios right now, but will they still like our threat position once we use 80% of our Holy Power charges on SotR instead?

One thing I'm surprised they left alone was Rebuke - Prot Pallies are far and away the best interrupters in the game now, and I suppose Blizzard is just letting that stand for the time being.

[Darielle]

The other problem with this nerf is how ridiculous Pally threat is going to tower over the DPS once again - Blizzard likes the ratios right now, but will they still like our threat position once we use 80% of our Holy Power charges on SotR instead?

Using full ShoR and no WoG, our damage is roughly in line with the damage other tanks push out. Variations of a couple hundred exist, and rng can shift things around, but more or less if you assume single target, hitting buttons, it's around the same ballpark. Using WoG involves sacrificing DPS (which we choose not to need) for survivability.

So our DPS is fine with ShoR, and should continue to be fine.

[Saler]

Looking at the new trinkets for tanks, I'm finding them a little underwhelming compared to the new dps/healing trinkets.

These are the ilevel 391 versions, so from the heroic raid content (or some form of 'upgrade' on the normal versions at ilvel 378

Scales of Life : Huge Stamina upgrade and i'm assuming there's some storage beyond the base 7k. 5 times or 10 times. 35k every 2 minutes is reasonable.
Gift of the Greatfather : Nice mastery but an 8k absorb is pitiful.
Stay of Execution : Good avoidance but very situational with the on use.

Overall aside from the base stamina/mastery/dodge I just find them a little 'meh'.

[mclem]

One thing I'm surprised they left alone was Rebuke - Prot Pallies are far and away the best interrupters in the game now, and I suppose Blizzard is just letting that stand for the time being.

I missed it at first - they actually made it a bit better (although that's also true of a lot of other interrupts, too:

* All non-damaging interrupts off the global cooldown will now always hit the target. This includes Pummel, Shield Bash, Kick, Mind Freeze, Rebuke, Skull Bash, Counterspell, Wind Shear, Solar Beam, Silencing Shot, and related player pet abilities.

That strikes me of kind of a big deal. Particularly for tanks.

[Beefchief]

My hit rating is not capped (though it's not neglected either) and I've never noticed my Rebuke missing. In fact, I already assumed that it always landed in PvE raid situations. Maybe it's different for PvP though.

[thegreatheed]

I guess this is a worthwhile fix... I would just rather NOT heal myself at all. I want to tank, not be a half tank half healer....

[sarcasm] Roll a warrior[/sarcasm].

I loved the flavor change of WoG/SoI tanking. In wrath, we were warriors with a static rotation. In 4.0, we were PALADIN tanks. All paladin specs should have a healing flavor. Just like ret has Divine Storm, which heals, and selfless healer, which props up more healing. I don't want to be a warrior in pink/purple/yellow armor. I want to be a paladin.