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4.1 PTR

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Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby Invisusira » Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:55 am

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BWAAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

His little legs! Look at his little legs!!

who's the cutest firelord! who's the cutest little firelord!

I wonder if his abilities will be ballet-themed

edit: really wouldn't be that hard to fix, though you know they won't:
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Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby Vort » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:18 am

Linkie wrote:we have been the best (although not by a huge margin) progression tanks for a while.


Pretty sure someone posted previously that guilds weren't dropping their DK, Druid or Warrior tanks in favor of Paladins. This is true when you look at raid makeups of the top tier guilds. They're not purposefully making their tanks re-roll to the so called Overpowered Savior Tanks that people make us out to be. Paladins are great tanks, but so are all the other tanks, they're all different for different reasons. I don't see every progression guild using a Paladin as their MT and I've seen several guilds that don't use one at all. Self preservation and Support was always our play style. That's what a Paladin is meant to be all about, but have you ever seen a DK tank Chim? It's a beautiful thing to behold. Dk's can be just as crazy with self healing as Paladins.

A WoG "change" was required, but I wouldn't have done it in this fashion. Vengeance remains the issue, the scaling of Vengeance totally blows things out of proportion for threat and self preservation. We've said it many times now - we want threat to matter in the long run, not just the first 20 seconds. The reason we pretty much all swear by SoI and WoG rotation is because it's pointless to use SotR when we don't get any defensive benefit from it and when you're already pulling 40k TPS from a regular WoG rotation with SoI up, you hardly need to worry about using SotR. Vengeance shouldn't be as high a maximum value as it can be right now, cut it back by 30% or so and you'll see a much bigger impact on our threat and survival than any of this other lousy BS.

If this change goes through it's going to once again muddle our already messy as hell rotation to feature more holes than a miniature golf course. I'd like to see Guarded By the Light reduce the CD on your WoG by 5/10 seconds respective to Talent Points if we absolutely had to live with a WoG cooldown. A blue post would be nice for the reason behind the change, something better than "Oh we're changing it because we don't want paladins to be rewarded for something they're doing which doesn't suit how we like them to play."

Bleh.
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Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby Linkie » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:30 am

Noradin wrote:As said before, DG excludes us and LoH applies a debuff thus conflicting with paladin healers.


They are still great cooldowns. DG can stop a crapton of damage on the fights I mentioned, and it's unique to our spec.

And LoH can be used on other targets than us. I don't really see why anyone would think they aren't great cooldowns we bring because of what you mentioned.


Vort wrote:Pretty sure someone posted previously that guilds weren't dropping their DK, Druid or Warrior tanks in favor of Paladins. This is true when you look at raid makeups of the top tier guilds. They're not purposefully making their tanks re-roll to the so called Overpowered Savior Tanks that people make us out to be. Paladins are great tanks, but so are all the other tanks, they're all different for different reasons. I don't see every progression guild using a Paladin as their MT and I've seen several guilds that don't use one at all. Self preservation and Support was always our play style. That's what a Paladin is meant to be all about, but have you ever seen a DK tank Chim? It's a beautiful thing to behold. Dk's can be just as crazy with self healing as Paladins.


That's because we weren't overpowered, we were slightly better than other tanks. That's why I pointed out it wasn't by a big margin.

I agree tanks are pretty balanced these days, while also having a pretty varied playstyle/toolbox. Obviously the optimal tank will differ for different fights.

I do totally agree that this is not the best way to reduce our (self-)healing though, especially when paired with the change to HP-generation.
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Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby Fetzie » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:40 am

Timeless Eye
Epic
Quest Item

perhaps they are thinking about the item + sunmote swap you could do in sunwell to change un-needed gear?
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Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby Darielle » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:41 am

If this change goes through it's going to once again muddle our already messy as hell rotation to feature more holes than a miniature golf course. I'd like to see Guarded By the Light reduce the CD on your WoG by 5/10 seconds respective to Talent Points if we absolutely had to live with a WoG cooldown. A blue post would be nice for the reason behind the change, something better than "Oh we're changing it because we don't want paladins to be rewarded for something they're doing which doesn't suit how we like them to play."


Among the first batch of quotes on MMO-Champ which is apparently translated from the Taiwanese boards is this:
"Word of Glory: We hope Retribution and Protection Paladins occasionaly do the right healing to others, but as we know Paladins sometimes feel that Holy Power is only for the healing. We rather like these specs use more Holy Power on damage abilities, and occasionally heal."
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Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:13 am

Darielle wrote:Among the first batch of quotes on MMO-Champ which is apparently translated from the Taiwanese boards is this:
"Word of Glory: We hope Retribution and Protection Paladins occasionaly do the right healing to others, but as we know Paladins sometimes feel that Holy Power is only for the healing. We rather like these specs use more Holy Power on damage abilities, and occasionally heal."

So... give pallies a REASON to use HoPo on more than just WoG? As Vort mentioned, threat is a joke w/Vengeance, and this will just have a double dip effect on survival if your raid uses both Prot and Holy pallies. That is, assuming Holy doesn't drop WoG altogether for LoD.

Bobness wrote:outside of raiding WOG is not that hot

From what I've been hearing, WoG is pretty awesome in PvP (which is probably where a lot of this stems from.)
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Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby Fetzie » Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:23 am

holy paladins will not have a cooldown on WoG, that is being added to their holy spec bonuses
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Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby katraya » Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:27 am

ZG is back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My all-time favorite raid so I am pretty stoked especially since it's something I should actually be able to experience.


Invis - thanks a lot for making it very difficult for me to contain my laughter in class. :?
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Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby Darielle » Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:42 am

So... give pallies a REASON to use HoPo on more than just WoG? As Vort mentioned, threat is a joke w/Vengeance, and this will just have a double dip effect on survival if your raid uses both Prot and Holy pallies. That is, assuming Holy doesn't drop WoG altogether for LoD.


Holy won't have a cooldown on WoG.

Blizzard seems to like threat for all tanks where it is, so they're not touching Vengeance. They don't seem to want to offload more on ShoR in terms of boosting ShoR up. They seem to like the power of an individual WoG where it is, their issue is with using it to the exclusion of all else (for Prot), and in spamming it in PvP (as Ret). So, instead of balancing around WoG spam by hitting our mitigation or cripping Ret to keep WoG spam balanced, they're limiting it so it has to be an occasional thing.
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Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby Loras » Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:52 am

I kinda don't agree with the WoG change and some of the explanations behind it. First, I don't think we were considered the 'best' tanks out of all 4 really. I don't have the statistics to prove it but I don't believe that's the case. Second, about DK's not having shield. Look again at their mastery. All tanks have a block equivalent now, us and warriors with block, DKs and Druids with absorb shields. Granted, ours is better in multimob tanking scenarios, but do we really wanna be labeled the "add-tanks" again? If I spam WoG, my dps is crippled, if I dont spam WoG, my survivability is crippled. I don't know, I just think we need a slight compensation in survivability to make up for the WoG change, in order to be on par with other tanks.
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Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby Darielle » Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:03 am

Loras wrote:I kinda don't agree with the WoG change and some of the explanations behind it. First, I don't think we were considered the 'best' tanks out of all 4 really. I don't have the statistics to prove it but I don't believe that's the case. Second, about DK's not having shield. Look again at their mastery. All tanks have a block equivalent now, us and warriors with block, DKs and Druids with absorb shields. Granted, ours is better in multimob tanking scenarios, but do we really wanna be labeled the "add-tanks" again? If I spam WoG, my dps is crippled, if I dont spam WoG, my survivability is crippled. I don't know, I just think we need a slight compensation in survivability to make up for the WoG change, in order to be on par with other tanks.


That is the thing you seem to be missing about this entire thing.
DK's actually do take more damage than other tanks if you don't account for Death Strike heals/absorbs. They were specifically balanced around it to where they were roughly equal (roughly in the sense that DK's were very very good as a result of their cooldowns, but so were we).

As a Paladin, using ShoR didn't cause us to take more damage relative to other tanks. WoG was pure gravy bonus. We pretty much got free self healing for the cost of threat that we didn't need because we were happily using WoG over and over. We weren't ZOMGHIDEYOKIDSHIDEYOWIVESCAUSEPALLIESTANKINEVERYBODYOUTTHERE overpowered, but we did seem to be above the bar they were setting because they simply were not balancing us around WoG spam. We took similar amounts of damage without WoG, and got to heal a lot more with WoG on top of that, and they didn't like it. No one who was looking through logs should be surprised that they're addressing this. We certainly don't need "compensation", because we ARE on par with other tanks. Without WoG.
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Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby Loras » Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:14 am

Yes, I agree, but DK's use Death Strike no matter what, so you can't say "we dont take DS heals/shield into consideration". And the heal is bigger than WoG by far, and about the absorb, I am not sure it's not competitive or even better on single target scenario. And that got fixed even more by changing the behavior of the DS shield so that it stacks and dosnt replace the old one. So yeah, Death Strike heals/absorbs are there, one way or another, while WoG will not be there in a few weeks/months.
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Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby Shoju » Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:17 am

I guess this is a worthwhile fix... I would just rather NOT heal myself at all. I want to tank, not be a half tank half healer....
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Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby Malthrax » Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:20 am

Darielle wrote:Why would DG be baseline? Holy brings AM, Ret brings a lot, and we have solid 81-85 abilities.

A WoG change was clearly in the cards. It wasn't meant to be "spammed", we didn't appear to be balanced around it being "spammed", and they're not balancing us around "spamming" it. They want it to be occasional heal, and are enforcing that. The alternative is to get balanced around it, which would probably mean an armor/block/dr nerf.

I don't understand why people complain about reasonable changes sometimes. They're very definitely not applying a hasty massive nerfbat when balancing a situation they seem to consider is giving us too much. That's bloody rare.


They could, alternatively, make Word of Glory *not utilize* Vengeance-derived attack power, which would be the proper solution to the "ZOMGWOGIZ2PUWERFULQQ" bullsh*t.

So... now, if we're not WoG-spamming, what are we doing? Smacking SotR more often, generating more threat we don't need (thanks, Vengeance!)... and then people are going to complain that "paladin tanks do too much DPS - nerf nerf nerf!!"
Last edited by Malthrax on Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 4.1 PTR

Postby Worldie » Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:21 am

We got to wait till the definitive patch for WoG.
It may or may not make it, we'll have to see.

Obviously if this makes it to live, I'm going to revise my spec a bit as right now i'm using WoG spec myself.
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