Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Loras » Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:40 am

Darielle wrote:ShoR does not have a cooldown.

Which is what enables you to refire after a miss, do 1 HP ShoR's all day long if you want to, etc., fire two rapidly if you choose to follow one with a DP'd ShoR, etc.

Eh, I don't even think less-than-3-HoPo Shield Slams are even worth discussing...

-anything below 3 HoPo is a joke.
-DP-powered shield slams you can do once per two minutes, with the loss of an extra GCD. Really? ^^
-saying once again, a sacred-duty-procced shield slam that misses, loses the proc.

Other arguments, please :)
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Darielle » Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:44 am

-saying once again, a sacred-duty-procced shield slam that misses, loses the proc.


That's standard behaviour for buff-procs.

The fact that ShoR and WoG and Inq are usable at less than 3 HP is of note. WoG for example scales linearly with HP, so hitting it with 2 HP is something you can choose to do so if you really feel that badly about delaying it. For that matter, if you reallllly care that much, nothing stops you from 2-pointing ShoR's for the sake of OCD, since threat's a joke to the point that you barely even need to use ShoR a couple of times in an entire fight anyway.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Loras » Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:03 am

Yes, I know it's standart behavior for procs.
And I still don't see how that is relevant to what I said :/

(figuratively speaking)
We are comparing shield slams. 30k hits vs 30k hits. One on 9 sec strict CD (else it'll be a 3k hit, not 30), the other on 6 sec CD with the chance to become instant every so often. What Word of Glory's, what threat jokes you're talking about, I don't get it... It's not about if threat is a joke, or if procs behave one way or another, it's about a bad comparison/explanation from a Blue poster.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Epimer » Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:30 pm

I'm in my first post-patch raid just now, and I've barely noticed the difference. With 1% hit (racial) and 13 expertise with SoT up, I didn't have threat issues pre-4.06 and I don't have threat issues now. The only change I made was to move a point out of Reckoning into Grand Crusader to fill up some gaps, and I have to pay a little bit more attention now.

I was worried it was going to be much more obnoxious to play than this, honestly. It just needs a tiny bit more mental bandwidth to actively monitor Holy Power but that's it.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby masterpoobaa » Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:00 pm

I know i use 2 power WoG's somewhat regularly.
Mostly when incomming damage is limited, and things like judgement are about to come off cooldown and im low on mana.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Vort » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:08 pm

masterpoobaa wrote:I know i use 2 power WoG's somewhat regularly.


I find that I'm needing to use 1-2 Holy Power on WoG or even Inq just to keep my Holy Shield active. It's a rather tedious thing to monitor so I've gotten into the pattern of if 2 CS's/HotR's fail to connect in a row that I need to use whatever Holy Power I can get quickly or risk the buff falling. I do monitor the Holy Shield but in all honesty we shouldn't have to.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Darielle » Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:50 pm

(figuratively speaking)
We are comparing shield slams. 30k hits vs 30k hits. One on 9 sec strict CD (else it'll be a 3k hit, not 30), the other on 6 sec CD with the chance to become instant every so often. What Word of Glory's, what threat jokes you're talking about, I don't get it... It's not about if threat is a joke, or if procs behave one way or another, it's about a bad comparison/explanation from a Blue poster.


That wasn't really the context that Zarhym brought Shield slam up, for what it's worth.

I find that I'm needing to use 1-2 Holy Power on WoG or even Inq just to keep my Holy Shield active. It's a rather tedious thing to monitor so I've gotten into the pattern of if 2 CS's/HotR's fail to connect in a row that I need to use whatever Holy Power I can get quickly or risk the buff falling. I do monitor the Holy Shield but in all honesty we shouldn't have to.


If you get two misses, your HS refresh should be pushed back 6 seconds, so you'll be refreshing it 15 seconds after you put it up leaving you with 5 more seconds. If you keep going for one more, you'd get a refresh with 2 seconds to spare.

So if you were wanting to develop a pattern, you'd want to go for 3. Going for 4 would leave you with 1 second of 30% block instead of 40% block, which more or less won't be noticeable anyway but refreshing at 15 seconds is a bit of a waste unless you're having a situation where you're suddenly not attacking something and it's attacking you, which is pretty nonexistent.

I do monitor the Holy Shield but in all honesty we shouldn't have to.


...... Why?
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Vort » Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:47 pm

Darielle wrote:
I do monitor the Holy Shield but in all honesty we shouldn't have to.


...... Why?


Perhaps not the best choice of words on my part. For that I apologize and please let me clarify - Not so much that we shouldn't need to monitor it at all, but rather we shouldn't be penalised for having bad RNG and have one of our important buffs drop when a boss is hitting us for 100k. The way Holy Power scales with our SotR is a clear definition that it's meant to be used with 3 charges. Word of Glory and Inquisition slightly less as these are static, but the loss of GCD's is another indication that our Holy Power is used best when it's at 3 charges.

It was stated that Holy Shield got changed for those exact reasons, much the same way the warrior Shield Block got changed to a mini cooldown. Blizzard thought it was too much of a chore (chore being the word that was used, I'll have to dig up the post for source but I do believe it may have been Ghostcrawler.) to keep the buff up when it's pretty much the number 1 priority. Also, having 40% block instead of 30% is the difference between life and death on some bosses. I've seen overkills of 3k or thereabouts, and when some bosses hit you in excess of half your total hp a swing, you want that extra 10% up ALWAYS.

There are many boss fights where Holy Shield will drop almost always and there are some boss fights where it may drop due to RNG. During the Atramedes encounter if you don't save at least 1 charge of holy power for the air phase, your holy shield will almost certainly be down for when he lands. Sometimes it's unnavoidable, Chimaeron springs to mind when you're the Double attack soak where after the stacking during feud you may miss miss miss on every strike and not have any charges to rebuff. Granted you should be able to get at least one charge before the next Double, but it all boils down to RNG yet again. In theory your Holy Shield will never drop if you're tanking any of the big bads where you don't have to move, but that's theory and the game we play doesn't like to adhere to said theory.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Bobness » Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:49 am

Meh..I'm a bit puzzled that they don't just put prot's HoPo generation on an automatic 1 charge every three seconds once you go into combat, then it does become about survivability/threat & can be balanced accordingly.

the current incarnation adds uncertainty but i'm not sure it adds in any meaningful way to either fun or playability.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Aubade » Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:03 am

Bobness wrote:Meh..I'm a bit puzzled that they don't just put prot's HoPo generation on an automatic 1 charge every three seconds once you go into combat, then it does become about survivability/threat & can be balanced accordingly.

the current incarnation adds uncertainty but i'm not sure it adds in any meaningful way to either fun or playability.


If that happened I would start a petition to take it back to it's current state.



Nothing should be "automated"

also; Why don't you guys just get more hit/expertise? I'm pretty sure my survivability is just fine with 7.9% hit and 28 expertise, and I missed a total of 2 CSes during an entire conclave fight. Things went like normal and didn't accidently hit any 2 ShoRs or WoGs since I watch my holy power.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Epimer » Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:36 am

Aubade wrote:also; Why don't you guys just get more hit/expertise? I'm pretty sure my survivability is just fine with 7.9% hit and 28 expertise, and I missed a total of 2 CSes during an entire conclave fight. Things went like normal and didn't accidently hit any 2 ShoRs or WoGs since I watch my holy power.


Because for as long as threat is a non-issue, gearing for threat stats is sub-optimal. Our rotation is certainly a bit more annoying in 4.06, but there wasn't a net threat loss, so gearing to circumvent an annoyance rather than gearing for the encounter/your level of progression/etc is not smart, in my eyes.

YMMV and all the usual disclaimers, but my survivability matters (because we 2-heal everything due to lack of main spec healers, and one of our new healing recruits isn't very good, so there's a noticeable healing shortfall) whereas my threat is just as ridiculously irrelevant as it was in 4.03. That's not an environment in which stacking threat stats - regardless of how annoying the rotation is with low hit and expertise - makes any kind of sense.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:31 am

Aubade wrote:
Bobness wrote:Meh..I'm a bit puzzled that they don't just put prot's HoPo generation on an automatic 1 charge every three seconds once you go into combat, then it does become about survivability/threat & can be balanced accordingly.

the current incarnation adds uncertainty but i'm not sure it adds in any meaningful way to either fun or playability.


If that happened I would start a petition to take it back to it's current state.



Nothing should be "automated"

also; Why don't you guys just get more hit/expertise? I'm pretty sure my survivability is just fine with 7.9% hit and 28 expertise, and I missed a total of 2 CSes during an entire conclave fight. Things went like normal and didn't accidently hit any 2 ShoRs or WoGs since I watch my holy power.

I don't think it should be automated... otherwise they could just remove it all together and go back to straight mana. I'd rather have a talent that procs extra HoPo (maybe tack it on to Reckoning and have the extra hits get a % chance to proc HoPo?) I'm sure if they thought about it a little more, they could have more than just CS/HotR generating it, while still preventing it from becoming completely OP for Prot.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby yappo » Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:41 am

While long-time threat is a non-issue, and I only tank heroics, I've given up checking my HP.

I'm watching red-coloured mobs (they should go down properly) and I'm watching green-coloured mobs (they should not have red mobs climbing up their backs). I'm watching if my judgements proc. I don't need to watch if my resource generator works properly on top of that.

Sure, threat set solves the problem, but really...

I can't charge, and I can't Death Grip. If something goes south I'm stuck with taunting crap and slowly lumbering over to the offending mob (unless a caster AND my Captain America doesn't miss) and set things right. Those aren't exactly the moments where watching HP-generation is of any priority. Besides, even if I did, I could be sitting with a situation where I don't even get the opportunity to MISS slamming my shield in the face of said mob to get its attention because I have no shield to slam in its face to begin with.

So, I'm stuck with a threat set, generating threat I don't really need, forcing my healers to spam more than they need, all in order to -- WoG myself as we already cleared that I'm currently generating even more threat than I needed to begin with because I'm now hit and expertise -capped AND ramping up vengeance a lot faster because I'm taking a beating I ought to have geared away from in the first place...

Stupid setup is stupid.

Edit: And I'm just waiting for some drooling moron at Blizz QC and Balance to flag that: We need to look over tankadin dps and threat, because it has increased too rapidly since 4.0.6
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Bobness » Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:50 am

Zi
Skye1013 wrote:
Aubade wrote:
Bobness wrote:Meh..I'm a bit puzzled that they don't just put prot's HoPo generation on an automatic 1 charge every three seconds once you go into combat, then it does become about survivability/threat & can be balanced accordingly.

the current incarnation adds uncertainty but i'm not sure it adds in any meaningful way to either fun or playability.


If that happened I would start a petition to take it back to it's current state.



Nothing should be "automated"

also; Why don't you guys just get more hit/expertise? I'm pretty sure my survivability is just fine with 7.9% hit and 28 expertise, and I missed a total of 2 CSes during an entire conclave fight. Things went like normal and didn't accidently hit any 2 ShoRs or WoGs since I watch my holy power.

I don't think it should be automated... otherwise they could just remove it all together and go back to straight mana. I'd rather have a talent that procs extra HoPo (maybe tack it on to Reckoning and have the extra hits get a % chance to proc HoPo?) I'm sure if they thought about it a little more, they could have more than just CS/HotR generating it, while still preventing it from becoming completely OP for Prot.

Essentially prior to the most recent patch it was automatic
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby thegreatheed » Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:33 am

Aubade wrote:
also; Why don't you guys just get more hit/expertise?

Because that runs counter to progression gearing. All that the hit/expertise gives us is a bit less frustration, and less mitigation to boot. The extra threat generated is absurdly unuseful, because sitting at 1% hit and 6 expertise, I have absolutely zero issues with threat on a raid fight.

This discussion is not about whether it's a huge nerf because CS can miss, it really isn't a nerf, because it doesn't affect our ability to hold threat in any significant way (in raid tanking). It's a huge nuisance though.

It could affect heroics, but again, PVE isn't really balanced around heroics.
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