Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Dantriges » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:55 am

1) We have to refill our relevant resource manually and can do it only every three seconds. Mana is close to irrelevant if you don´t do something fancy like consecrate and raidance or forget to judge. We can do a "Combo generating strike" every three seconds, rogues on GCD. They get a refund on their second resource if it fails to connect. They are also positioned behind the boss. And the biggest rage income for warriortanks is still getting hit if I am not really mistaken.

2) Breaking rotation because you miss several times in a row is not a fun way to do it. Also our only proc is based on a succesful CS connecting. So there is no breaking the rotation, it´s waiting. Also I have to say, I am not a friend of complicated rotations with several blinking lights flashing, "Hit me, hit me." Just costs mental bandwidth. No small wonder DPS is standing in fire if their brain is occupied with managing several dps cooldowns, procs and the normal priority queue. I expect a roguish class to be more like that, more frentic. And even for them there is a certain amount you shouldn´t cross. Tanks are stoic. Properly executing your basic role, doing DPS or tanking shouldn´t occupy too much time.

They want feedback, they actually need feedback, they told so, then they don´t care. Probably because of all the whining in the forums but if you want to publish big game for several million players who pay a monthly fee and you want to keep them, you have deal with it that there is a big share of whiners in your player base.

Actually I find it a bt strange that the current tanking paradigma is "Drop threat stats" and that threat is a non issue. I don´t think it´s a good development. I just think it shouldn´t turn into a "Waitng to do something" game.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Darielle » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:16 am

Comparing to other classes probably isn't the best way to think about it.

Blizzard has only given partial/full refunds to classes that they feel need it. Ferals, Rogues and DK's for example come with pauses inherent in their play already just through how they play. A missed Shred would take ~4 seconds to recoup the energy, and Energy as a resource works with combo points as a pooling/timingforcombopoints mechanic. Blizzard chose to give them partial (80% energy for Ferals), or full (DK Runes don't get used up) refunds because they feel that's a line where not having those would slow things down TOO much, and only for those specs.

With Paladins and Holy Power, that was apparently a concern back when 4.5 second cd CS existed where some of the gaps were "too large", and Ret hadn't had Divine Purpose implemented and working, certainly didn't have DP added to EG, and HoL was being iterated on (I don't remember if Mastery even existed in Hand of Light proc form at the time), and Prot didn't have 3 sec CS implemented. Apparently now, with where Prot and Ret are at now, it's not considered necessary. Someone was bored, made that call, and chose to change it.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Hokahey » Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:55 am

Dantriges wrote:1) We have to refill our relevant resource manually and can do it only every three seconds. Mana is close to irrelevant if you don´t do something fancy like consecrate and raidance or forget to judge. We can do a "Combo generating strike" every three seconds, rogues on GCD. They get a refund on their second resource if it fails to connect. They are also positioned behind the boss. And the biggest rage income for warriortanks is still getting hit if I am not really mistaken.

2) Breaking rotation because you miss several times in a row is not a fun way to do it. Also our only proc is based on a succesful CS connecting. So there is no breaking the rotation, it´s waiting. Also I have to say, I am not a friend of complicated rotations with several blinking lights flashing, "Hit me, hit me." Just costs mental bandwidth. No small wonder DPS is standing in fire if their brain is occupied with managing several dps cooldowns, procs and the normal priority queue. I expect a roguish class to be more like that, more frentic. And even for them there is a certain amount you shouldn´t cross. Tanks are stoic. Properly executing your basic role, doing DPS or tanking shouldn´t occupy too much time.

They want feedback, they actually need feedback, they told so, then they don´t care. Probably because of all the whining in the forums but if you want to publish big game for several million players who pay a monthly fee and you want to keep them, you have deal with it that there is a big share of whiners in your player base.

Actually I find it a bt strange that the current tanking paradigma is "Drop threat stats" and that threat is a non issue. I don´t think it´s a good development. I just think it shouldn´t turn into a "Waitng to do something" game.


Let me be clear in saying that I don't disagree about whether its fun or not. What is or isn't fun is up to the individual.

You seem to have missed the point I was making with internal consistency. Yes, Holy Power is not exactly the same Combo Points, nor is it the same as rage (and regardless of the primary source of a Warrior's rage, he gets none for missing attacks). What remains is that it is something you get from using an attack on an enemy, and now not connecting on that attack does not grant you the benefit of Holy Power, which is consistent with the overall design of the game. There are other exceptions to this rule, but they are exceptions designed specifically to be exceptions (i.e. Overpower).

I'm a little confused by your concern about "mental bandwidth". To me, that would be what I call "immersion". No, it isn't always easy to see and do everything you need to for both staying alive and performing optimally, but being that its far from impossible, that's what I call "challenge". "Frantic" is just "exciting and fun", in my mind.

The tanking paradigm has pretty much always been "survival>threat". Gearing for threat is nice when its a good option, but there are many ways for groups to manage it outside of the tank's gear choices. Threat *is* an issue, but its not the primary focus for a tank in gearing.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby aureon » Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:01 am

You realize something is broken when you can tank with a macro doing your job, and be 90%+ effective.
/castsequence was doing my daily heroic for a while, tbh.
I think this change has something to do with breaking that, aswelll.
Annoying, but more than justified.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Dantriges » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:25 am

I do not compare between classes, Blizzard did. You cn´t be rewarded for missing because other classes don´t isn´t a balance change. Its some "it´s not fair" snap decision. It seems besides breaking our rotation it didn´t do much besides being annoying.

Inner logic? I could spin that around all the way I want.
For examle a fluffy expanation: Holy Power is generated by Crusader Strike via the act of striking. The act of striking at the enemy is a catalyst, transforming unspecified energy aka mana into the refined essence of Holy Power bringing the paladin closer to his power source, the Light. Actually hitting the enemy hasn´t anything to do with it, because it´s about the paladin and is connection to the Light and not wounding his enemy. Because of this most uses for holy power are healing allies and buffing yourself. The more aggressive paladins (prot, ret) channel Holy Power into attacks against their enemies via weapon or shield. Bang, done.

Fluffy description for why it happens this way. Well I am not good writing flowery descriptions in eglish so I hope you don´t scrutinize too closely.

And well our resource works differently than warriors rage and rogue´s energy/combo points. Blizzard did the comparison thing. Other classes have to connect to generate resoruces, so paladins have to. That was their reasoning more or less.
Some don´t like affliction or enhancement (if the tooltip is correct for primal Wisdom).
I mean every resource system is different, they can´t just compare one to the other and draw the conclusion. This resource system generates when the character hits, because of that, this other resource system has to work the same, for justice.

I drop the issue about threat stats. Of course survivability trumps threat. I just drew a rather arbitratry line.
Just like Blzzard. It´s arbitrary, they stated wrong reasons and the whole affair it looks like miscommunication and arbitrary decisions are still running rampant after five years of working on the system.

And well fun? Tanking is for me about situational awareness, reacting to the boss, using my cooldowns and healing at the right time. Pushing buttons for rotation is basic, boring routine for me. Doesn´t matter if a proc screams at me, Use me use me, unless it´s half a dozen basic upkeep tasks. I don´t know why some people think, pushing 5 buttons instead of 3 day after day, is more exciting.
Stopping because of a lack of resources is an annoyance. If they want to mix up our rotation they should introduce meaningful choices or perhaps a GC that actually has meaning. But GC is based on connecting, too, so they just ripped somes holes, withoout filling them with something else.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Chunes » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:07 pm

Just did a full night with a mastery-focused reforge setup and jesus christ, the difference is night and day from a threat-oriented reforge setup.

Before, the difference between being threatcapped (tm) and being masteried out the ass was pretty negligible in my opinion, but now it's pretty huge. If it weren't for vengeance being so out of balance, over the top +threatzorz, we actually would have to care about hit/exp.

So yeah. Any previous post where I was like "eh no big deal man, take it easy!", I officially recant.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Bladesong » Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:47 pm

After two nights of raiding, I will agree that it's annoying to miss and not get a HP, especially since my reflexes are currently working so that I've already committed to SotR or WoG before I realize that I missed my CS. However, the annoyance I felt was only on par with how it already feels when I miss with my SotR or AS - it's the price I pay for going full survival with my gear. It didn't affect my threat at all and while I ended up casting some 2 HP WoGs, I don't think that the hit to my healing was anywhere near the mental panic I was feeling from not seeing the third bar light up.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Lieris » Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:10 pm

As well as the patch notes screw up I did not like the lying that followed from Blizzard by ret-coning this as a bug. Holy Power was supposed to be consistent for prot but suddenly they have decided to renege on that.

Ultimately it doesn't change much, I am still going to focus on self healing and mastery. It just makes the game less fun to play and adds a random element to tanking that I dislike. Holy Power was kind of working but this makes it really irritating when you get a miss streak.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby thegreatheed » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:11 pm

Chunes wrote:Just did a full night with a mastery-focused reforge setup and jesus christ, the difference is night and day from a threat-oriented reforge setup.

Before, the difference between being threatcapped (tm) and being masteried out the ass was pretty negligible in my opinion, but now it's pretty huge. If it weren't for vengeance being so out of balance, over the top +threatzorz, we actually would have to care about hit/exp.

So yeah. Any previous post where I was like "eh no big deal man, take it easy!", I officially recant.


You recant... why?

Vengeance is in fact "out of balance, over the top +threatzorz".

We don't have to care about hit, so why recant?

I tanked 11/12 +3 hours of attempts on nef in the last 2 days in my mastery++ gear. I had a threat issue ONCE on nefarion with our 20k dps hunter. He pulled for a split second and feigned. I didn't even use hand of salv on anyone else. It's still a COMPLETE NON-ISSUE and all this fretting is pointless.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Teranoid » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:35 pm

Chunes wrote:Before, the difference between being threatcapped (tm) and being masteried out the ass was pretty negligible in my opinion, but now it's pretty huge.


No its not. It's not even close. A huge annoyance? Yes. A huge change in the way we gear? I doubt it. If they ever fix vengeance to make threat matter for more than the first 30 seconds of a fight it will but until then it boils down to "ugh missed another one.. oh well"
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby thegreatheed » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:38 pm

Teranoid wrote:
Chunes wrote:Before, the difference between being threatcapped (tm) and being masteried out the ass was pretty negligible in my opinion, but now it's pretty huge.


No its not. It's not even close. A huge annoyance? Yes. A huge change in the way we gear? I doubt it. If they ever fix vengeance to make threat matter for more than the first 30 seconds of a fight it will but until then it boils down to "ugh missed another one.. oh well"



exactly, i actually think i do more dps than i did before. my rotation is definitely more annoying, but with seal changes and CS damage buff, it's definitely not any significant change in dmg (threat) output.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Loras » Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:12 am

You know what makes me most angry? 1 specific explanation of the Blues.

"So what, warriors miss shield slams too".
I find this quite an annoying and incompetent reply. Why? Cause the frigging CS is NOT our shield slam. Our shield slam is our shield slam. Which, oh my god, surprise, can miss too! So if ShoR was 100% chance to hit or something, and they make it affected by miss/hit, bla bla, THEN I would accept the comparison between shield-slam-missing warriors and us. Currently we can miss to power up our shield slam, AND our shield slam can miss on our own. Not to mention that before our shield slam was on a strict 9 sec CD, while warriors' one (unless I'm basing my opinion on old info) is 6 sec CD, with the chance to fit the odd instant refreshed one every so often. And not to mention that our shield slam is supposed to be balanced around Sacred Duty procs and if you have a Sacred Duty proc and your shield slam misses, you dont lose the HoPo, but you lose the proc (which is rather annoying).

So yeah, at least give a valid competent explanation rather than this... this... ugh :)
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Darielle » Sat Feb 12, 2011 2:47 pm

I find this quite an annoying and incompetent reply. Why? Cause the frigging CS is NOT our shield slam. Our shield slam is our shield slam. Which, oh my god, surprise, can miss too! So if ShoR was 100% chance to hit or something, and they make it affected by miss/hit, bla bla, THEN I would accept the comparison between shield-slam-missing warriors and us. Currently we can miss to power up our shield slam, AND our shield slam can miss on our own. Not to mention that before our shield slam was on a strict 9 sec CD, while warriors' one (unless I'm basing my opinion on old info) is 6 sec CD, with the chance to fit the odd instant refreshed one every so often. And not to mention that our shield slam is supposed to be balanced around Sacred Duty procs and if you have a Sacred Duty proc and your shield slam misses, you dont lose the HoPo, but you lose the proc (which is rather annoying).


ShoR does not have a cooldown.

Which is what enables you to refire after a miss, do 1 HP ShoR's all day long if you want to, etc., fire two rapidly if you choose to follow one with a DP'd ShoR, etc.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby masterpoobaa » Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:39 pm

Dk's build and use runic power.
Bears and warriors with rage.
Pallies with holy power now.

But pallies also have a secondary resource... mana.

Dunno bout you guys, but at some point in the future (next expansion maybe) I can see Pallies losing mana altogether. Wouldn't be hard to make it work for ret and prot, dunno how it would work for holy?
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Skye1013 » Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:43 am

masterpoobaa wrote:Dk's build and use runic power.
Bears and warriors with rage.
Pallies with holy power now.

But pallies also have a secondary resource... mana.

Dunno bout you guys, but at some point in the future (next expansion maybe) I can see Pallies losing mana altogether. Wouldn't be hard to make it work for ret and prot, dunno how it would work for holy?

DKs have runes and RP... so are a 2 resource tank as well.

Darielle wrote:ShoR does not have a cooldown.

Which is what enables you to refire after a miss, do 1 HP ShoR's all day long if you want to, etc., fire two rapidly if you choose to follow one with a DP'd ShoR, etc.

If you consider the fact that it isn't really worth hitting SotR with less than 3 HP, then SotR effectively had a CD of 9 seconds (the time it took to build up 3 HP via CS.) With misses, it will increase the "CD" randomly.
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