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Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Koatanga » Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:51 pm

Regardless of the reasoning, it should have been publicised because it represents a fundamental difference the the gearing and/or rotation of the spec.

Where previously we had reasonably fixed rotation, it is now quite variable unless you change your gear focus entirely. I ran a couple of short-term tests on some training dummies this morning. Over around 65 Crusader Strikes, I had some rather bad RNG luck and managed to get parried/missed around 20%(!) of the time. There were spaces where I missed or had parried 3 consecutive Crusader Strikes.

That was after I undid any reforging of hit and expertise, which put me at 3.5% and 21, respectively. I grant it is a small sample size, but the point to take from that is that with a larger sample size, you will run accross these "dry spells" unless you gear for additional hit and expertise.

Dry spells like that seriously trip up the rotation and put it pretty squarely in the realm of proc-tanking. Previously we could miss a couple of CS and make up for some of the threat with SotR. Now, we'd be pretty screwed with some consecutive misses on the pull.

Imagine you pull with AS and judge, then miss miss miss... No SotR to help you out, particularly if you used Divine Plea for Inq on the pull. You're pretty much left with wrath, consecrate, and harsh language.

I don't see much option. I think we have to gear for hit cap and at least soft expertise, which means we have to reduce mitigation/avoidance stats.

That's a reasonably serious nerf to come along with no warning.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby theckhd » Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:59 pm

Sabindeus wrote:Probably not? I think if every individual change and bugfix were ticketed they wouldn't get anything done. There's a certain balance to be found in the spectrum from no accountability/logging to too much process taking up your developers' and designers' time.


That's just a manpower issue. I mean think about it, with a team of 5-6 people, we manage to document every prot change meticulously before each patch. The only reason it takes so many is that it's not our job, and we have to go out and test everything on PTR/beta first.

The question is not whether it's possible; it obviously is. Hire 10 new employees with the job description I gave above, include them in all of the meetings and give them access to the code, and I guarantee it's possible.

The question is whether it makes monetary sense to do so. That's hard to quantify. It might slow the developers down slightly before a patch, but it might more than make up for that by minimizing the time spent after the patch hotfixing and investigating bugs that were caught earlier. And beyond that, it's hard to put a price on customer loyalty. How many players have quit in frustration because of the lack of communication and perceived ineptness? More importantly, how many potential new players does the game lose because of what they hear on the forums? How many lapsed players decide not to reactivate their account because of it? Those numbers may be small (or not), but I guarantee they're nonzero.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby rodos » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:58 pm

Sabindeus wrote:I think if every individual change and bugfix were ticketed they wouldn't get anything done. There's a certain balance to be found in the spectrum from no accountability/logging to too much process taking up your developers' and designers' time.

If it was me running the dev team on a project the size of WoW, public facing and worth so many millions of dollars, I would absolutely require every commit to source control to be linked to a ticket, at least for minor patches.

The commit comment tells you what was changed, while the (bug|enhancement) ticket tells you why it was changed, and who approved it.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby PsiVen » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:00 pm

I'm sure WoW's dev team has tons of internal tickets and commit comments, but they aren't the ones writing patch notes. There are specific people assigned to 'translate' the dev changes into patchnotes, and they tend to miss a lot of stuff. That's not a mark against their programming practices.

tinalt wrote:Honestly I don't even see it as a nerf to our threat. If anything it's a nerf to our survivability.

I've reforged about 2-3% avoidance and maybe 1-2% mastery to reach exp soft cap and just under hit cap.

since the reforging, my threat has increased, because before i didn't care enough about these stats. Now I'm a threat monster, even beating out our traditionally top TPS MT.

The only thing they've managed to change is that i'm slightly squishier, and have much more threat.


If you do this, yes it is a survivability nerf.

If you decide to get used to shitty HoPo generation, it's really not much of one. Fewer WoGs, whoop de doo.

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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby masterpoobaa » Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:05 pm

*thinks*
How many times in the past have prot pallies been this irritated?

The last 2-3 times that forebearance was changed arbitarily?
When the automatic AD proc when health fell under 35% was removed?
When our instant exorcism was removed?
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Darielle » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:06 pm

How many times in the past have prot pallies been this irritated?


So damn often they start blurring together.

I haven't understood the people who feel they neeeeeed to reforge or whatever for this.
Last edited by Darielle on Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Badenhawk » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:08 pm

What's missing is the why. I'm sure that there are a lot of people that would be less shitty about this change if rather than just say "the change is intended....we don't like rewarding players for missing" they would actually take the time to explain the reason/logic behind it. If it's an intended change, someone from the dev/design team has requested it and should be able to justify the reason for it to the community, eg. tank class balance, threat insane so we want to make things more interesting etc. Keeping tight-lipped or aloof about it promotes frustration and notions of bias against Paladin tanks, which I'll admit is a bit stupid, but when these get slipped in under the radar every now and then which quite noticably change the gameplay experience, with no corresponding changes for similar classes and little or no explanation, you can't help but feel a bit ripped off.

From a purely commercial standpoint, if I'm paying for a product and an 'enhancement' to that product suddenly means that it's more complicated or frustrating to use, I'm going to dump that product and look elsewhere. From a WoW standpoint that's a little harder to justify, since there's an argument for rolling a new class, and I'm not Feanorion so I won't rage-quit WoW because the sky is falling. But as a paying customer I want my 'product' - the Pally Tank - to be as enjoyable a playing experience as it was when I first purchased it, or ideally for that experienced to be improved, and these changes have potentially done the opposite. I don't want to go and invest in a new product - a Warrior/DK for example - I just want the one I paid for.

IMHO, tanks in general should be treated a bit nicer. We're in short supply right now and those of us that have stuck with it get slammed in RDF and in general if we make even the slightest mistake (which is not what I pay $15 per month for). Devs and designers should not be making it more difficult for us to be good tanks. That said, still half a level before I'm in any position to really rage about this, but I just wanted to show my support :P
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Darielle » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:15 pm

What's missing is the why. I'm sure that there are a lot of people that would be less shitty about this change if rather than just say "the change is intended....we don't like rewarding players for missing" they would actually take the time to explain the reason/logic behind it. If it's an intended change, someone from the dev/design team has requested it and should be able to justify the reason for it to the community, eg. tank class balance, threat insane so we want to make things more interesting etc. Keeping tight-lipped or aloof about it promotes frustration and notions of bias against Paladin tanks, which I'll admit is a bit stupid, but when these get slipped in under the radar every now and then which quite noticably change the gameplay experience, with no corresponding changes for similar classes and little or no explanation, you can't help but feel a bit ripped off.


I would highly highly highly doubt it has anything tank-specific.

My closest guess would be that they generally decided they wanted Holy Power to work that way because they felt it didn't need to give the HP on miss with the changes the specs (Ret and Prot) have had since back in the day when they made it happen (We've had 3 sec CS, various iterations on Divine Purpose, Hand of Light, etc.)
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Vort » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:17 pm

masterpoobaa wrote:*thinks*
How many times in the past have prot pallies been this irritated?

The last 2-3 times that forebearance was changed arbitarily?
When the automatic AD proc when health fell under 35% was removed?
When our instant exorcism was removed?


Good old forbearance... she's been knocked around, teased, bled, and battered. But she still functions without too many issues though and it's never been ridiculously bad, Divine Protection causing Forb was a bit odd though.

The automatic AD thing was op as hell and we all know it.

Instant exorcism removal was meh.

Tbh the most annoying thing that we ever got nerfed was Reckoning. We're supposed to be Holy Warriors of Supreme Power! Kazzak had it coming!
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby rodos » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:33 pm

I really think what's happened is that some part of the dev team have gone on a bug-fixing rampage for this patch. A "clean up the queue" type of thing. As extra evidence, take a look at the QQ on the official forums over the White War Talbuk. They fixed a bug where the wrong texture was being used on the horns - problem was that this bug has been there since the mount was created, and everyone liked the look of it as it was.

This indicates to me that "old" bugs have been fixed without any further consultation with CMs, class designers, art directors, or whoever. As a developer myself I know it's a really easy trap to fall into.

Me: Well, duh! this is broken. Let me fix. *code* *code* *code* *commit* *test* *release*
User: AAAAAARRRGGGHHHHH! WTF DID YOU DO TO MY WORKFLOW?
Me: /facepalm user was using bug to creatively work around software limitations and get job done
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Vort » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:45 pm

rodos wrote:Me: Well, duh! this is broken. Let me fix. *code* *code* *code* *commit* *test* *release*
User: AAAAAARRRGGGHHHHH! WTF DID YOU DO TO MY WORKFLOW?
Me: /facepalm user was using bug to creatively work around software limitations and get job done


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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Badenhawk » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:46 pm

Darielle wrote:I would highly highly highly doubt it has anything tank-specific.

My closest guess would be that they generally decided they wanted Holy Power to work that way because they felt it didn't need to give the HP on miss with the changes the specs (Ret and Prot) have had since back in the day when they made it happen (We've had 3 sec CS, various iterations on Divine Purpose, Hand of Light, etc.)

Approaching this from the perspective of the tank since it's my preferred playing style and the purpose of this forum, but yes totally agree that it is not specifically a tank issue, since I do have a ret spec for levelling. Tank rant at the end was probably a bit superfluous :oops: .

The TL;DR point I was trying to make was that the forum responses from blue posters indicated it was an intended change but no one has taken the time to explain why the change happened, what was wrong with the existing mechanic that warranted the change or what the anticipated impact is on endgame play. If someone came out and said "hey, we screwed up....sorry" or "we know a lot of you don't like this change but here's why we did it", the community would no doubt be more accepting/understanding. As a paying customer though, unless it was a bug fix spree gone wrong I'm in the 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' camp.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Dantriges » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:48 pm

Sabindeus wrote:Probably not? I think if every individual change and bugfix were ticketed they wouldn't get anything done. There's a certain balance to be found in the spectrum from no accountability/logging to too much process taking up your developers' and designers' time.


Ok, let´s turn it a bit around. How do they plan what they are doing? Don´t they issue work orders?
Like we fix this bug and this and so on, now we rebalance class x via adjusting y. Get to work boys. Report back when it´s done.

It´s a big company with a huge program. Somehow they have to coordinate the whole thing and communicate to other departments.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Darielle » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:27 pm

If someone came out and said "hey, we screwed up....sorry" or "we know a lot of you don't like this change but here's why we did it", the community would no doubt be more accepting/understanding.


They came as close as they probably can in Wrath. Now they've decided it didn't accomplish anything great so GC doesn't post on the role forums. I don't think they want to go around spending more time in internal backchatter.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Hokahey » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:56 pm

A couple of *possible* explanations for why the change occurred-

1) Internal consistency- Misses/dodges/parries on special attacks do not generate combo points for Rogues or Druids, and the same results on auto-attacks do not generate Rage for Warriors. Most weapon/trinket/enchant procs occur only off of successful attacks. It doesn't make sense for Paladins to be unique in this regard.

2) "Rotation"- My understanding was at least part of the reason for saddling the class with Holy Power was to break Protection Paladins out of a mindless threat rotation as they had in Wrath. Guaranteed Holy Power generation works against that. Mind you, you are still (theoretically) able to gear for guaranteed Holy Power generation, even if it is probably ill advised as a tank.

I really do think its a legit gripe about Blizzard not disclosing/explaining this change. However, annoying as it may be, its hardly anything to be terribly bothered by, and even I, slow-witted as I am, am able to come up with a couple of possible reasons why this change may have been viewed as necessary by Blizzard.
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