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Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

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Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Shoju » Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:26 am

I feel like continuing to post in the Post your Frustrations thread about this topic isn't in the spirit of that topic, so I'm starting this thread, to hopefully shift the conversation out of there and over here.

I am vocally opposed to the change. Not because it nerfed us to unplayable, but because it is indeed a major annoyance. After a Night of Raiding, I have some observations.

Threat is still, a non issue. I never noticed on any of the fights my threat being an issue. Last night we did Omnotron Defense System, Argaloth, and Conclave of Wind.

For Omnotron I was tanking the first and third golems.
On Argaloth I was tank #1 (to start the pull).
On Conclave of Wind I started at Nezir, and transitioned to the other guy (the adds guy).

Before the raid, I worked on a dummy a bit, and it became painfully obvious that I needed to up my threat stats in order to not miss like a champ. On testing, I was at 14 expertise, 2.9% hit with Seal of Truth and 60stat feast. On the dummy, I had a streak of 5 straight wasted CS's. I then went and reforged my gear. I got to 3.61% hit, and 25 expertise. This made a noticeable difference on the dummy.

During the raid, I ate 90hit rating food on some pulls, and 60 stat feast on other pulls. I couldn't really tell a noticable difference between these (obviously) since they were

1.) a small sample size
2.) 90 hit isn't even a full 1% hit.

Threat was by and large not a factor on any of the fights. There was a trash mob in TB that I just couldn't seem to hit with CS to save my life, but that is probably just bad RNG.

When we arrived at Conclave of Winds, I took Nezir, with a healer. There was a very noticeable lack of Holy Power on this fight. On the 4 pulls it took us to get them down, I would say 40% of the time, I was hitting CS more often than 3 times to get a full stack of HP. I was using SoI.

Overall, This change doesn't break the spec. We can, and will continue to be a strong tank. I'm unsure how much reforging to do. In my reforging for last nights raid, I lost 1.2% Dodge, .1% Parry, and 1.02% Mastery. This was converted into <1% hit, and 11 Expertise.

We did have a lot of trickle down tank deaths during omnotron, but I can't directly attribute that to my loss of CTC. Once I get the log from last night in my possession, I can start dissecting it compared to the last time I did omnotron and Conclave, and see where we I am.

Once I get the log, and have a chance to look it over, I will post it here, as well as a link to the logs from the last night we worked on Omnotron, and my last kill of Conclave of Wind for comparison. I tried to do the same jobs last night as I did the previous times, though with Omnotron, you can't necessarily guarantee that you will be tanking the same golems. (at least not the way we do it.)
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Chunes » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:24 am

Reforging looks like it's the only option if you want reliable HoPo generation, even still I don't think the situation is as grim as you paint it.

At worst I've missed 1 cs at a time, never in succession, when I'm mastery focused and sitting at about 2% hit. It's annoying, but not devastating. To get hit capped from reforging I'm looking at losing 5-6% block and maybe a tiny bit of dodge/parry. Fully raid buffed I'm usually at about 52% block and 25% combined dodge/parry. Does that 10% block really make that much of a difference? I've had mixed responses from my healers when I just ask them "subjectively, how was healing me tonight?" When fully focused on mastery, the responses have been "same as always" to "much easier".

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal of course, but if your healers aren't running out of mana or you aren't on the bleeding edge of your progression, then sacrificing some block to have more reliable HoPo generation may be worth it.

I think it boils down to quality of life more than anything. Threat's a non-issue, our self healing is pretty trivial compared to what a dedicated healer can achieve. My 2c at least.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Shoju » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:50 am

Chunes wrote:Reforging looks like it's the only option if you want reliable HoPo generation, even still I don't think the situation is as grim as you paint it.


I didn't think I was painting a very grim picture.

At worst I've missed 1 cs at a time, never in succession, when I'm mastery focused and sitting at about 2% hit. It's annoying, but not devastating. To get hit capped from reforging I'm looking at losing 5-6% block and maybe a tiny bit of dodge/parry.


It is, at least in the gear, I'm looking to be able to get in the coming week or two, impossible to be both hit capped and expertise capped.

Fully raid buffed I'm usually at about 52% block and 25% combined dodge/parry. Does that 10% block really make that much of a difference? I've had mixed responses from my healers when I just ask them "subjectively, how was healing me tonight?" When fully focused on mastery, the responses have been "same as always" to "much easier".

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal of course, but if your healers aren't running out of mana or you aren't on the bleeding edge of your progression, then sacrificing some block to have more reliable HoPo generation may be worth it.

I think it boils down to quality of life more than anything. Threat's a non-issue, our self healing is pretty trivial compared to what a dedicated healer can achieve. My 2c at least.


Personally, I wish that they would revert the change. It doesn't achieve a nerf to threat. It might be a "slight" nerf to the self healing we are able to put out, but this nerf reminds me (like I said somewhere else) of the sacred Duty nerf in ICC. Irritating, but in the end, it is just for show. I kept hearing people say things like YEAH! Sacred Duty Nerf kicks the pants in on Ardent Defender! Um... no. 2% of my max HP when mathed out, shrunk Ardent Defender range by a laughably minuscule amount.

This is going to have the same effect. It is an annoyance that the paladin has to live with, but it isn't going to change "much". We are still going to get the threat lead, and move into self healing. We are still going to use WoG. Maybe we reforge to focus on some threat stats, maybe we deem it isn't worth it. It just isn't going to be that big of a deal in the overall picture IMO. I don't like the change. I don't want them to keep the change, but that isn't an attitude based on being "TOO THE GROUND!" like some people thought. It is based more on the fact that the change is an annoyance, and an irritation. I don't see the point of the change if it only serves as an annoyance and irritation, and a shallow nerf for the masses to see.

Honestly, most of my vitriol on the subject is really centered around the disconnect between the devs and Paladins. I'm sure that it isn't as wide of a margin as it looks like from this angle, but EVERY patch since Ulduar dropped has had unnanounced stealth nerfs / changes to paladins, as well as things like the Sacred Duty nerf which happened during peak time of a raiding night for most people. I'm incredibly tired of it. I'm tired of the Devs changing things. Not testing things. Not responding to the information. And then saying
"This is a bugfix" (No, its not.... and I'm currently looking through my beta notes for the GC post)
"Sorry we didn't get a chance to tell you"
"We can't always get everything into the patch notes" ... Yes you can. It is a collection of changes. My profession revolves around these things. You don't make changes to things like this without some form of tracking. SOMEONE knew it was going to get done. The someone involved in the notes, or the someone involved in the change dropped the ball.

It is infuriating to me that they handle things this way. I'm not going to say that I "demand" better, or I "deserve" better, because I pay 15 bucks a month. I'm just going to say, that it is frustrating, I don't enjoy the disconnect between them and us, and if I do ever follow through with quitting my paladin, it will be just as much about this as it is Holy Power, and their half baked nerf ideas.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby sherck » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:25 am

Shoju wrote:We did have a lot of trickle down tank deaths during omnotron, but I can't directly attribute that to my loss of CTC. Once I get the log from last night in my possession, I can start dissecting it compared to the last time I did omnotron and Conclave, and see where we I am.


I cannot wait to see the logs either; I hope they are up tonight.

I have a few idea as to what was going wrong but need to look at things to see for sure.

Cheers,
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Flex » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:32 am

Simplest way is to just stop caring.

I've mostly stopped caring about what and why Blizzard does things and just adapt to it.

If I find that I miss the HoPo generation enough to think about hit/expertise then by hell they accomplished in making a resource I care about for the first time since I chain chugged mana pots in TBC but that was game breaking.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby tinalt » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:24 am

Honestly I don't even see it as a nerf to our threat. If anything it's a nerf to our survivability.

I've reforged about 2-3% avoidance and maybe 1-2% mastery to reach exp soft cap and just under hit cap.

since the reforging, my threat has increased, because before i didn't care enough about these stats. Now I'm a threat monster, even beating out our traditionally top TPS MT.

The only thing they've managed to change is that i'm slightly squishier, and have much more threat.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Chunes » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:32 am

I guess I just don't understand why you're so up in arms Shoju. Compared to a class like, say, the shaman class, we're sitting really pretty.

I don't know if you've ever done any sort of software development, or any sort of code work, but even small to medium projects, where documentation is much easier, miss changes and tweaks in the final change log. For a project the size of what world of warcraft is, I find it pretty fucking amazing that they are able to capture and report all the changes that they do.

To quit the class because of a failure on the dev's part to properly document changes and development seems, to me, sort of irrational.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Shoju » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:45 am

sherck wrote:
Shoju wrote:We did have a lot of trickle down tank deaths during omnotron, but I can't directly attribute that to my loss of CTC. Once I get the log from last night in my possession, I can start dissecting it compared to the last time I did omnotron and Conclave, and see where we I am.


I cannot wait to see the logs either; I hope they are up tonight.

I have a few idea as to what was going wrong but need to look at things to see for sure.

Cheers,



Based on my Skada breakdown, I think I know exactly what the problem was, and I don't think it was because I was missing ~2.5% CTC over what I had previously. Looking back over my death logs from last night, The only time I died, was when my golem was powering down, which coincides with the next golem coming up, and several times a special of some sort from the other active golem.

I'm both excited and frustrated to completely reinstall wow this weekend. It should fix my problems with Ep/Gp and with not being able to log.

@chunes.
I never said that we weren't sitting pretty. I don't like the change because it is ANNOYING. I don't like Holy power because it is merely complexity for complexities sake. You didn't need to introduce a new secondary resource mechanic to the paladin to introduce the complexity that they have. Now, you have this second arbitrary resource system which has already led to massive changes to the class, because you replaced mana with holy power. It feels like they introduced it, and have then thought:

"Well, Golly, I guess I didn't realize that Holy was going to be so mana efficient when they have 2 mana free heals. I didn't realize that by introducing a mana free, instant heal and propping it up in the tank tree, that it was going to be like this."

The class is fine. I just don't like the changes. I can PLAY with the changes. I can SUCCEED with the changes. But that doesn't mean that I like the way it plays, that I enjoy the new resource, that I enjoy things happening and not being told about it.

I'm a website designer / programmer for a living. I work with a database that houses 100k + products. Documentation is the name of the game for me. Inline Commenting in the code, commenting at the top of docs, and changelogs are all things that were preached to me from day 1 of coding in college.

Document your changes. It makes it easier to find the bug when you make a mistake.
I have a file on my comp that has at least an outline of every change I have made to the website and database over the past 2 years, even including if and when minute details like formatting in the .css files changes.

I guess it seems rational to me, because I don't like unannounced changes. I don't like things being done and the "Whoops" mentality of not mentioning it to the public. I don't expect them to be perfect and get every one, but I'm serious, if you go back and look, every single patch since 3.1 (and even some hotfixes) have had changes in some way shape or form to the paladin class that have not been documented in the patch notes, and they weren't mentioned until it was brought to their attention.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Beefchief » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:46 am

tinalt wrote:Honestly I don't even see it as a nerf to our threat. If anything it's a nerf to our survivability.

I've reforged about 2-3% avoidance and maybe 1-2% mastery to reach exp soft cap and just under hit cap.

since the reforging, my threat has increased, because before i didn't care enough about these stats. Now I'm a threat monster, even beating out our traditionally top TPS MT.

The only thing they've managed to change is that i'm slightly squishier, and have much more threat.


Exactly this. I absolutely crush on the threat meters now, almost to the point of being too lazy to ever change into Focused Avenger's Shield. Nothing that serious yet though.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Chunes » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:05 pm

Haha Shoju, considering your area of expertise then it makes total sense why this sort of practice irritates you so.

I agree that it is annoying and I also agree that these issues are certainly surmountable and I ALSO agree that documentation practices should be solid and applied 100% of the time.

Still though, I acknowledge that humans are human and documentation practices might differ from one code space to another.

Holy power being complex for complexities sake was something I would have agreed with you on at one point, but I think I've just become too accustomed to it to really mind it anymore. I was able to configure a set of power aura strings that keeps my holy power information front and center, yet in a non-intrusive (for me at least) way.

Had I not been able to get a clean UI that showed me what I wanted w/ HoPo, I probably would still take issue with it. This is also coming from a guy who in hindsight finds the old "mana only" resource to be a bit one dimensional. Take it with a grain of salt.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:25 pm

Shoju wrote:I'm a website designer / programmer for a living. I work with a database that houses 100k + products. Documentation is the name of the game for me. Inline Commenting in the code, commenting at the top of docs, and changelogs are all things that were preached to me from day 1 of coding in college.

Wtf class would teach that on day 1? That sounds more like a Software Engineering principle rather than Computer Science, or even straight Programming.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Malthrax » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:27 pm

Chunes wrote:Haha Shoju, considering your area of expertise then it makes total sense why this sort of practice irritates you so.

I agree that it is annoying and I also agree that these issues are certainly surmountable and I ALSO agree that documentation practices should be solid and applied 100% of the time.

Still though, I acknowledge that humans are human and documentation practices might differ from one code space to another.

Holy power being complex for complexities sake was something I would have agreed with you on at one point, but I think I've just become too accustomed to it to really mind it anymore. I was able to configure a set of power aura strings that keeps my holy power information front and center, yet in a non-intrusive (for me at least) way.

Had I not been able to get a clean UI that showed me what I wanted w/ HoPo, I probably would still take issue with it. This is also coming from a guy who in hindsight finds the old "mana only" resource to be a bit one dimensional. Take it with a grain of salt.


At the very least, some Blizzard rep could have responded to one of dozens of posts on the PTR forums during the three week run-up to patch-release, where it was asked, repeatedly, "Is this a nerf? Is this a bug? Is this a bug-fix? Is this intended?". They had time to respond to the Druid power-shifting nonsense...
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Chunes » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:33 pm

Well, I'm working on the assumption that a lot of their development is highly iterative and thus very volatile. Getting a developer to the front lines to interface with the public is a difficult thing because you're taking time out of what they are (hopefully) good at (coding/dev work) and pushing them to do something they may or may not be any good at (public communication).

So I'd wager that the community reps and the GC's prefer to remain silent on questions regarding development that is "in development" because there's a good chance what they say might end up not being true in later iterations of said development.

That and it's easier for them to remain silent than say "it's still being worked on and thus we don't have a solid answer for you right now" a million times with every question that pops up on the forums.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Teranoid » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:41 pm

Putting out the fires after they rage out of control is the best course of action?

I don't buy that they couldn't figure this out when its existed since beta let alone be spared 5 seconds to even acknowledge it until they were backed into a corner.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Shoju » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:49 pm

Chunes wrote:Haha Shoju, considering your area of expertise then it makes total sense why this sort of practice irritates you so.

I agree that it is annoying and I also agree that these issues are certainly surmountable and I ALSO agree that documentation practices should be solid and applied 100% of the time.

Still though, I acknowledge that humans are human and documentation practices might differ from one code space to another.

Holy power being complex for complexities sake was something I would have agreed with you on at one point, but I think I've just become too accustomed to it to really mind it anymore. I was able to configure a set of power aura strings that keeps my holy power information front and center, yet in a non-intrusive (for me at least) way.

Had I not been able to get a clean UI that showed me what I wanted w/ HoPo, I probably would still take issue with it. This is also coming from a guy who in hindsight finds the old "mana only" resource to be a bit one dimensional. Take it with a grain of salt.


Yeah, my area of coding does mean that I'm a bit more "restrictive" things like this. And honestly, if it wasn't for the fact that it just keeps happening I could dismiss it as "hey, it happens". To me, it comes across as (I hate saying this) laziness at some point in the process.

I use a HoPo Mod as well, and I probably wouldn't take issue with holy power if it were more fleshed out. If, for example, if they introduced an addendum to a talent like Grand Crusader that gave us "random extra" holy power, or more things to do to accumulate holy power, or more interesting outcomes of holy power, I wouldn't find it to be contrived. Right now, the "I get Holy power based on 2 abilities that share a 3 second CD would be like giving every rogue just sinister strike to gain holy power with. But, there are other ways that rogues get CP'S. Sure, each spec of a rogue has a CP generator (Mut / SS / Hemo), but there are random other things as well.

For My analogy, I will say that Divine Plea is like Premeditation.
Holy Shock is akin to Mutilate
(prot)Crusader Strike is akin to Sinister Strike
(ret) crusader strike is akin to Hemo

Ambush, Gouge, Backstab, Cheap Shot, Garrote, Shiv are all spec independant, and give CP's.

Then you have

WoG, Light of Dawn, Inquisition, Shield of the Righteous, and templar's verdict. Each tree has their own unique finished, and then 2 of the same (wog / inq).

There are tons of rogue finishers. Yes, I know they aren't all used all the time, but there are options, and sometimes they are what you need.

I just feel like HoPo is a very dumbed down CP/Finisher system. It doesn't involve making complex decisions. It doesn't involve choosing the right HoPo gaining ability for the situation, It doesn't involve picking the from a list of Finishers and choosing right.

The system is incredibly simple.

use your HoPo generator, and pick a finisher. For Holy, You pick Single Target or AoE, For Prot you pick Self heals, AoE threat, or Single Target threat. For ret, you pick damage buff, or big damage. None of these choices are even remotely complex. They are just there, and the right choice is sadly obvious. It doesn't change based on raid comp, or buffs present, or "is this up?" (well, ret might care about inq being up I don't know. I gave up on ret at 83 as an offspec, and jsut haven't needed another spec yet).

Now, I'm not saying I want Paladins to be a carbon copy of rogues, with tons of choices, and just different names. I am saying that if you are going to model something after another class, be careful not to make it stupidly simplistic, which I feel they did.

The change to CS takes what was a fairly simplistic mechanic, and adds RNG to it. The RNG doesn't make it better. The RNG doesn't serve to make it more interesting. The RNG IMO, makes it more frustrating. There were other ways to make threat stats matter. For instance, Nerf Vengeance. Ok, but then Self Healing is still good. Fine. Nerf that. Yes, that is two changes instead of one change. But, those two changes are far more in tune with fixing a problem, and you can just come out and say "this is what we did and why." without hiding behind the "This is a bugfix BS".

Like I said, the change didn't kill the spec. It didn't hurt the spec. It didn't make me so Oh my god this is unplayable! It made me say "Yay. More irritations... more lack of connection between the consumer and the company... "


Sorry for the rant. I'm just a little irritable about it.


@Sab- My very first C++ Class. Then, the first day of SQL, Then the first day of .php, then the first day of actionscript. I'm pretty terrible with a lot of languages I learned bits and pieces of, but I did get the picture drilled home that documentation is the very basis of making sure your large projects run smoothly.

EDIT: And yes, all my C++ / VB was taught by one guy, and all my php / sql / actionscript by one other guy.
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