Luck of the Draw buffed.

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Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Shoju » Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:46 pm

That's right.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/2209011#blog

You can get up to 15% bonus to health , damage, and healing by pugging up to 3 people now. (5% per person)

Interesting way to go about fixing it. That still doesn't save you from the one shot, which is good, but does give more leeway for the bad players.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Teranoid » Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:57 pm

I like how it took them 2 months to realize "oh hey this isn't working. Oops." Oh well it will help to make pugging a tad less painless I guess.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Senador » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:52 pm

The change only really is helpful for trash.

Most boss mechanics that are dangerous will still be dangerous with the buff. Ozruk will still one shot you, Pistol Barrage will still kill you, if you screw up killing portals on Satesh, you'll still get those "Absorb Healing" adds and be overwhelmed, if you don't swap to adds on Rispsnarl, they'll still explode, etc...

What it does, is two things. First, it eases the "Entry" level into heroics when pugging. Second, it encourages guilds to bring one or two pugs into their heroic group just for the extra damage/speed buff.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Epimer » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:58 pm

Senador wrote:Second, it encourages guilds to bring one or two pugs into their heroic group just for the extra damage/speed buff.


Disagree. 10% more DPS per person isn't nearly enough recompense for the risk of taking along a fire-standing, paint-eating waste of a spot from LFD.

I'm not sure I see the need for such a buff in the first place because there's already a mechanism in place for making content easier with time: familiarity with it. But this is a contentious issue so I won't go any further with that line of argument. I'm not really bothered either way.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Mcduffie » Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:00 pm

Epimer wrote:
Senador wrote:Second, it encourages guilds to bring one or two pugs into their heroic group just for the extra damage/speed buff.


Disagree. 10% more DPS per person isn't nearly enough recompense for the risk of taking along a fire-standing, paint-eating waste of a spot from LFD.

I'm not sure I see the need for such a buff in the first place because there's already a mechanism in place for making content easier with time: familiarity with it. But this is a contentious issue so I won't go any further with that line of argument. I'm not really bothered either way.

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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby halabar » Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:01 pm

It probably helps the healers the most. I suffered willingly through a horrible HoO last night, which the healer wasn't really ready for. Since we pugged one slot, it would have helped a bit. And I've seen other undergeared healers that really needed the help.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Teranoid » Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:06 pm

Senador wrote: Second, it encourages guilds to bring one or two pugs into their heroic group just for the extra damage/speed buff.


How could this ever be the case? What person in their right mind would think "hey lets get someone who we don't know from some random server and maybe we'd get this run done 5 minutes faster"?

I'd rather have 4 other people with me that I can guarantee know their shit rather than shave a few minutes off a run.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby PsiVen » Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:25 pm

Teranoid wrote:
Senador wrote: Second, it encourages guilds to bring one or two pugs into their heroic group just for the extra damage/speed buff.


How could this ever be the case? What person in their right mind would think "hey lets get someone who we don't know from some random server and maybe we'd get this run done 5 minutes faster"?

I'd rather have 4 other people with me that I can guarantee know their shit rather than shave a few minutes off a run.


I don't think it will affect guild groups much, but if you grab a tank+healer+dps it'll be a nice bonus with those two pickups. Basically, this buff is Blizzard admitting that the average player needs a 10% bonus to get by on mediocrity.

Anyway, nerfing heroics is cowardice but in the absence of other changes it has become necessary for PuG success with 5 average players. Most full-time raiders have bought all their valor gear and are less likely to run heroics, and the pool of inexperienced 85s that need heroics is only growing. Even so, I'd rather see a different approach to the problem that involves educating the playerbase instead of allowing the bads to not need to get any better.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby majiben » Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:04 pm

Do you retain the bonus if you kick said pugs and invite your guild mates? If so we could have a problem.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby halabar » Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:48 pm

PsiVen wrote:Even so, I'd rather see a different approach to the problem that involves educating the playerbase instead of allowing the bads to not need to get any better.


LFG doesn't do that anyway...
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby halabar » Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:49 pm

majiben wrote:Do you retain the bonus if you kick said pugs and invite your guild mates? If so we could have a problem.


or a solution.. :D

but your guildies coming in likely wouldn't have it, even if you kept it.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:29 pm

PsiVen wrote:Anyway, nerfing heroics is cowardice but in the absence of other changes it has become necessary for PuG success with 5 average players.

...

Even so, I'd rather see a different approach to the problem that involves educating the playerbase instead of allowing the bads to not need to get any better.



Cowardice? Really?

Also, I would like to hear any ideas you have that involve educating the playerbase.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Skye1013 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:49 pm

majiben wrote:Do you retain the bonus if you kick said pugs and invite your guild mates? If so we could have a problem.

Isn't there a timer before you can boot them anyway? Thereby defeating the point of obtaining the buff? Unless that persons guild is just that bad, that they have to have a 5-15% buff to complete any heroics.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Hokahey » Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:35 am

My statement when I was first told about this was "Why? Heroics aren't overwhelmingly difficult now."

That's still where I am. I'm a mediocre player on my best days, and even *I* didn't miss the Luck of the Draw buff. I thought it had been done away with altogether. I've been healing since the first week of the expansion, and while I waited a bit for gearing before I plunged headlong into heroics, I found the bulk of problems in 5 mans is more lack of effectve communication, poor situational awareness, poor execution, or (occasionally) poor group composition. I've yet to wipe because Mr. Tank lacks the HP, and I can only think of 1 time where group-wide DPS was the chief issue that prevented an encounter from being completeable. The extra healing isn't as easy to calculate the value of, but I d say its almost always a non-factor in wipes.

The buff only helps groups where performance was marginal, and even then only on encounters where a little extra DPS/HP/Healing genuinely helps, which is actually the minority of scenarios in my experience. By marginal, I mean someone performing well below where they should be to do a heroic 5 man, which is pretty absurdly low. The scenarios where more forgiving mechanics would be more helpful are almost exclusively those where its a "move or die" or "interrupt this or die" situation.

Then there's a little voice in my head that says "So what? It doesn't hurt to have things die faster and runs go easier. Why do I care?"

The only answer I have to that is that the minor challenge imposed by heroics made them reasonably fun. Chipping that difficulty away so soon makes the gear grind more grind-y. I already see heroics as generally pretty easy unless the group is composed of utter morons, which has been pretty rare for me (*knock on wood*) thus far. Making them much easier takes them from a reasonable challenge to "just something I do to build up points and collect loot", and I had hoped it would take longer than a couple of months for them to get to that point. The vast disparity in rewards already make regular dungeons not worth the time once you can queue for heroics, and this change will make that worse, in my opinion.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby PsiVen » Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:16 am

fuzzygeek wrote:Cowardice? Really?

Also, I would like to hear any ideas you have that involve educating the playerbase.


Look at it in terms of a new 85, trying to break into raiding. The current heroics do an excellent job of teaching you the sorts of mechanics you need to worry about. Each raid, ideally, is a step above the last.

Now picture a new player leveling in dungeons. From 1-60, your experience will range from "I have no idea what's going on" to "I know what's going on now and none of it is important". At no point are you punished for it. From 60-70, you start to appreciate people who use tanking gear, and start to wipe if you blatantly disregard mechanics. From 70-80, you learn how to do the same things efficiently, and are punished if you get really carried away. Now you're at the same point as the people in WotLK who were content to smash heroics and normal raids: trained to not worry about anything, and assume that you're doing well since it's worked so far. But as soon as you step into the Cataclysm dungeons, you're expected to take your gear seriously, pull carefully, use CC, pay attention, and learn mechanics that you might have to wipe on to even figure out. That's a huge jump, isn't it? It's no wonder people give up easily when they're being challenged for the first time ever.

This is a core problem with the difficulty curve of the game that goes deeper than the dungeon experience. So Blizzard is taking the easy way out, and handwaving it as "PuGs need more buffs" because they know that will appease people. Certainly it's faster than looking into the deeper problems, but if they have plans for that they haven't shared any. They have acknowledged that WotLK difficulty was a mistake, but nerfing heroics just contradicts that.

These changes are fairly tame, but for comparison, the difference from the 0% to 15% ICC buff brought Heroic Saurfang-10 from being a serious roadblock that demanded raid-stacking for anyone without holy paladins... to a simple boss nobody even thought of as one of the hard ones. Of course by next tier, none of this will matter because the random dungeon pool will be full of geared raiders getting their new valor points, everyone will be overgeared for heroics before their first rep hits exalted, and unenchanted fuckwits will be complaining about how much harder BWD/BoT/TotFW PuGs are than 5-mans.
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