Tips to Make Your Guild Awesome

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Re: Tips to Make Your Guild Awesome

Postby Shathus » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:17 pm

Nikachelle wrote:
Mcduffie wrote:Raid leading is hard. And having people that undermine the raid leader with things like "we shouldn't do it this way, we should do it THIS way" is frustrating. Especially when the RL has seen that his strat works, and has spent hours going over all available options.

Granted, I don't know your situation. But I know it's frustrating when I have Joeshmo suggesting "hey, let's tank him over here so we don't get xyz" and having to explain why he's wrong.

Basically, trust your raid leader. Keep your faith in him. If you don't, it'll get you killed. If you have sound advice, add it. But if your "sound advice" is just a knee-jerk thought, keep it to yourself.

Meh, yes and no. I raid lead, and I appreciate input from my raiders. I look up strats just like everyone else, but if I suggest something and they think it's wrong, I'd like to hear it, along with an explanation of why, or what could work better. Raiding is a collaborative effort and no one is ALWAYS RIGHT NO MATTER WHAT. The raid leader is no exception to this. That being said, a raider is not to voice their opinion mid-battle. Between battles, sure, but mid-fight when the RL may be trying to give instruction is just poor timing and thoughtless.

I don't think it's undermining to suggest why an RL might be wrong. It's only undermining/demeaning if you perceive it that way.


I apologize for deviating more towards raid leading than guild info in general but... I agree wit Nika above. The first time we did Magmaw, I had read/seen the strat where you have everyone in melee range, except a hunter to draw the Pillar. She would lay a frost trap and range AoE them down. We were having problems where the adds were getting split, half going with the hunter, half moving towards the ranged, so we lost dps time and were struggling more with the fight. After trying a few modifications and still failure I asked if anyone had any suggestions (especially since I hadn't know about the add-split issue since I couldn't really see it that well). A suggestion was made to have the ranged all stay together and move/kite so the adds stay as one. That strat got us our first kill and we've gotten better at it each week.

I <3 the people that actually watch videos and read about the encounter ahead of time. I know some say "I can only learn by doing" but even just watching a video helps you see "oh, THAT'S what the ability looks like" etc ahead of time.
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Re: Tips to Make Your Guild Awesome

Postby theckhd » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:24 pm

Nikachelle wrote:I don't think working out strats is "arguing" either. It's just "why don't we try this, this time?"

It can be a pretty big grey area though, and depends a lot on presentation. "This strategy is wrong, we should..." and "what if we made this small adjustment..." will get you different results even if they propose the same idea. Raid leaders, whether they want to admit it or not, do have an ego that needs to be considered. :)

This is something I've had to be careful about recently. In my old guild, "K" and I both did a good bit of strategizing and raid leading, before he stopped raiding and left to form his own guild. After that point (and during MC/BWL/AQ, before K became an officer), I was pretty much the one that managed both departments.

Now, by circumstance, I'm in K's guild, and of course he's the GM/RL. Luckily, he and I have a history of working together, so he doesn't seem to mind when I suggest alterations or adjustments. And my track record on that sort of thing is pretty good; I don't tend to bother with suggestions that aren't likely to make a significant difference.

But I'm still careful about how I word things, and how vigorously I defend my ideas. The point is not just to bring up an idea and provide supporting evidence, but to do so in a way that makes it clear that it is merely a suggestion, and that you're 100% on-board regardless of what call he makes.
Last edited by theckhd on Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tips to Make Your Guild Awesome

Postby Mcduffie » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:33 pm

OF course, Theck nails it on the head.

But, all our raids work differently in the "people management" department. Some clear tips on things that cover the broad spectrum of effective raiding/pvping in guilds would be helpful.
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Re: Tips to Make Your Guild Awesome

Postby thatguy » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:59 pm

The RL/BG Leader needs to know when it's not their night. If things are going poorly and everybody has their head in their rectum, have the guts to just cut it short so people can clear their heads, go do something else and come back fresh.

Wipes are part of progression but when you start regressing I think it's just as useful to stop what you're doing and circle back up the next time.
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Re: Tips to Make Your Guild Awesome

Postby gtechman » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:00 pm

Treating folks with respect goes a long way. I have had many people come and go in the guild I am in, but almost always remain on good terms with folks that leave. I attribute this to being fair with all and being respectful.

As far as raid leading goes, that is a very stressful position. It is rare to find someone that enjoys that stress for a long amount of time.

You can't please everyone in your guild if you raid 25 man. You will always have some that out skill others. The RL/GM just have to make sure to make decisions based on what they think is best for the guild and be objective about it.
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Re: Tips to Make Your Guild Awesome

Postby Mcduffie » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:33 pm

Great tips so far!

The list on the first page is updated, keep 'em coming.
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Re: Tips to Make Your Guild Awesome

Postby Epimer » Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:28 pm

Shathus wrote:I know some say "I can only learn by doing" but even just watching a video helps you see "oh, THAT'S what the ability looks like" etc ahead of time.


The "I can only learn by doing" crowd annoy me more than perhaps they should. No-one's expecting you to be able to perfectly understand and execute the fight on the first attempt based off watching one video, stupid. It's to get you that little bit of familiarity so you're not going at it blind. It's to take the edge of the "oh shit, what the hell is that and how do I deal with it?" moments. It's so we can spend less time covering stuff that you were perfectly capable of going over in your own time and more time learning how to work as a team from a common starting point of assumed prior knowledge and get shit done.

People who expect the raid leader to spoon-feed them every last morsel of information they need to know to do their job are the worst kind of people.
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Re: Tips to Make Your Guild Awesome

Postby Brekkie » Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:39 pm

A couple things I want to contribute regarding strategy formulation and suggestions:

With hard fights, there is almost never a magical correct answer that suddenly makes Everything Easier. Unless you are doing things completely wrong, normally what you will find yourself faced with as a raid leader is a selection of choices in varying shades of "this will be hard to pull off".
Eventually you have to make a judgment call and decide which option seems like it is the least terrible, and then try to work through it's inherent problems and challenges. The point I'm getting at is you need to give strategies enough time and attempts invested into them to give them a fair shot at working.
People holding up alternative strategies that are radically different and would require you to redesign how you approach the fight from the ground up, yet which have their own inherent challenges, and then complaining when the difficulty you are working through with the challenges inherent in your current strategy seem to them as evidence that we have to switch, are not a helpful thing.

I'll use a specific example from my own experience to illustrate what I mean; Anub'arak Heroic in ToGC limited attempts.

The big dilemma every guild faced initially with Anub'arak heroic was actually very simple. One add tank, or two.
No one had any idea which would turn out to be more effective, as first no one had killed it yet, and then when people DID kill it different guilds used BOTH one and two add-tank strategies successfully.

For those not familiar with the fight, the pro/cons split was this:

1 add tank
PROS
-better DPS because everything was stacked and all attacks and AOEs were certain to be fully effective
-Used 1 less ice, which allowed one more for use during the kiting phase
-better tank healing throughput because with only 1 main tank and 1 add tank, all tanks in the fight were either beaconed, or getting spammed.
-1 extra DPS, adding DPS
-1 fewer big health pool for the boss to life drain, significantly reducing the length of p3, the most dangerous phase
CONS
-Interrupting adds required a AOE-lockout stun rotation that had zero room for error, as cast times were less than a second long. A single add cast getting off successfully at any time during the fight would most likely equal a wipe, particularly if the add was able to burrow.
-higher incoming damage on the add tank, though compensated for by increased incoming healing
-greater chance of DPS aggro-pull deaths
-Add tank deaths were unrecoverable and automatically meant a wipe

2 add tanks
PROS
-slower casting times allowing individual kicks as back-up to aoe stun lockouts, making add casts less risky.
-death of one add-tank was recoverable
-less incoming damage per tank
-lower chance of DPS aggro-pull
CONS
-1 less DPS
-much longer final phase due to greatly increased healing on the boss via life drain off a third tank hp bar
-1 less ice available for kite phase made the margin for error during kite phases worse, and created a prerequisite for a minimum number of Blessings of Protection
-less effective DPS due to imperfect add positioning and longer time spent reaching required positioning
-less healing on add tanks because the paladin healing would be divided and add tanks would only be getting the healing from one rather than 2 paladins.
-precise requirement for initial ice placement requiring practice, and potential for the wrong ice to get used during kite phase causing unrecoverable positioning issues.


I use this fight as an example because it is probably the most clear-cut "Which strat do we choose?" dilemma I can think of.
Combine that with the environment of limited attempts, whichever option a guild took a stab at represented a sunk investment in attempts that could not be redeemed.

That kind of choice faces raid leaders a lot in progression. Multiple strats, neither perfect, both requiring a significant investment in working-out-the-details before it can be really given a fair test in workability.
Someone has to make an informed judgment call and just take a guess, and that's the raid leader's job. And then at that point, there is a chain of command.

It may turn out that the option the RL picks ends up being the wrong one, but it isn't possible to know that until it is invested in fairly. Another attribute of a good raid leader is the ability to know the line of when you have given a strat a fair enough investment to know it isn't going to work, and it is time to start all over from the beginning.

But in situations like this, somebody demanding that because you are facing challenges with option A, clearly you need to completely change the foundation of your strategy and switch over to option B instead, is NOT helpful, NOR welcome, and most definitely hurts the effectiveness, time efficiency, focus, and most importantly morale of your raid group.

Times when suggestions are OK:
-"We are trying to accomplish X, but encountering problems due to Y. I just thought of this other way we could try accomplishing X using this warlock ability and this DK ability."
-Raid Leader: "Well, we've tried everything we can think of and nothing is working, let's have a discussion and think outside the box and try to figure out what we are not understanding or missing somehow. Did anyone see anything from their perspective that we might be able to do in a better way?"
-"Would it be helpful if I did XAbility during that point? It's not part of my role, but it would probably help Player1 with theirs. Or should I focus on maximizing my own job?"
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Re: Guild Tips to Make Your Guild Awesome

Postby Kelaan » Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:47 pm

Mcduffie wrote:-Have a focused goal that directs the guild members, and shows your long-term intentions.
-Maintain an atmosphere that aligns with your goals. If your goals change, make sure the atmosphere follows. And vice versa.


Thanks for starting this thread. Not learning much new, but I think it's an invaluable resource for people new to the game or unhappy with their guild. The above things are some of the most important. Having goals that you share with your guildies is MORE important than being nice to one another, or having fun nights -- as evidenced by Gevlon's "the pug" guild/raids, or by some hardcore guilds that are cutthroat in their douchery to one another. Those guilds work because they have 100% buy-in frmo the members.

Often, having that clear, well-specified goal (or set therof) helps when making the the Hard Decisions. For example, our guild decided that this time around, we are building the Best Groups Possible for every raid night, while at the same time making as many viable groups as possible. We also have a long-time dedication to preventing "A-team/B-team" mentalities, so we are committed to each team being as "equal" in skill/buffs/etc as we can. On nights when we can only field two teams, the raids are much more "stacked" than on nights where we field three teams.

This sucks when people get consistently benched, and so on, but we are able to point out that we are being consistent in following what we've agreed on. We will try to include as many people as we can (even if it means taking newer tanks and healers, or having plate DPS do a tanking role), but contested slots are effectively filled by the best players in that pool. (Our raid leaders being both melee dps makes those slots especially tight, sadly.) There's grumbling about this, but people (I hope?) know that we are not out to get them personally, and that we are explicitly trying to make sure our best players don't sit -- so the way to a raid slot is to be one of the best players.

ou need to give strategies enough time and attempts invested into them to give them a fair shot at working.

VERY true!
As a raid leader, I often am not confident that I've chosen the best way -- merely that it's one I can understand well, and can explain well, and have (usually) read about or watched on a Tankspot video. If someone has an alternate suggestion, I'll consider it, for just about anything.

That usually involves saying, "That's interesting. We're going to try it this way a bit longer, and if X continues to be an insurmountable problem, we'll try your suggestion". Making it clear that you want the raid to get experience with this particular strat, so that it's familiar, is what you're after -- rather than claiming that it's the best.
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Re: Tips to Make Your Guild Awesome

Postby cerwillis » Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:50 pm

I think one point that bears repeating is to screen your players well before recruiting them. This will save you from the job of policing your guild's behavior and settling petty arguments.

If a guild member that I trust wants to invite someone to the guild, then I can assume that they have explained the culture, and they are vouching for the new recruit to some extent. If it's someone that is entirely unknown to us (trade chat, pugs etc), then they get the 3rd degree and have to fill out an app, and I chat with them a bit before we decide. The majority of those get declined, usually because they are <18.

Levels and gear can be gained, but good attitudes are more difficult to acquire.
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Re: Tips to Make Your Guild Awesome

Postby Mcduffie » Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:23 pm

cerwillis wrote:I think one point that bears repeating is to screen your players well before recruiting them. This will save you from the job of policing your guild's behavior and settling petty arguments.

If a guild member that I trust wants to invite someone to the guild, then I can assume that they have explained the culture, and they are vouching for the new recruit to some extent. If it's someone that is entirely unknown to us (trade chat, pugs etc), then they get the 3rd degree and have to fill out an app, and I chat with them a bit before we decide. The majority of those get declined, usually because they are <18.

Levels and gear can be gained, but good attitudes are more difficult to acquire.

My standpoint on recruitment is just to be completely fluid. If someone wants in, I don't mind them being in. They contribute to achievements and such, and maybe they're not bad. If they are, they're still an initiate, and I will be more than happy to kick them instantly. No attachment, no regret.

Raiders, on the other hand, are a very different story. I want to run a few heroics with them, I want to get to know them, and I want them to fill out an app so that officers can discuss the person in detail. Then, we will CONSIDER them for raids.

Thanks for starting this thread. Not learning much new, but I think it's an invaluable resource for people new to the game or unhappy with their guild.


Sure, thank you for your contribution as well. I'm not learning *much* new. But, if I had created a thread called "McDuffie's Tips to Make Your Guild Awesome," I don't think it would've gotten as far. It's the discussion and different perspectives that I'm really learning from anyway. So, mission accomplished for me.

MOAR TIPS!
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Re: Tips to Make Your Guild Awesome

Postby Badenhawk » Sun Feb 06, 2011 7:24 pm

Digren wrote:Blizzard doesn't make you form a five-member guild to field an arena team, nor do they make you form a guild to run an instance. I have no idea why they think you should form a guild to raid. A raiding organization is more like a job. A guild is more like a family.

This comment probably resonates with me the most. Any muppet can start a random group for any kind of activity in the game. For me, a guild needs something that binds people together beyond raiding once or ten times a week, since playing an MMO is not a job nor should it be. I think I may have posted something similar on the same topic that Mcduffie was originally reading.

For me, that means that a guild is going to be a bunch of people that I get along with and that share the same goals. I could just do randoms all day and be a cranky demeaning bastard like the rest of those trolls, but I choose to be in a guild because I enjoy playing with those guys - we have the same play styles, are easy going and we have a laugh. That's what I want after a long day at work, not copping shit from some faceless moron for not pulling agro off him/her after they pulled an extra pack.

It might of been covered already, but one piece of advice I will give is try to be inclusive to everyone in the guild. People will join your guild usually because you have something to offer that they want, but if they don't get a chance to participate they'll quickly lose interest and go looking for the same somewhere else. If that means Mr Uber DPS who turns up late gives up their spot for one of the newer or less experienced members, or lead tank does DPS so one of the juniors can get some tanking experience, so be it. If they have a problem with that then they don't belong in any guild I want to be a part of. As a GM/RL, one should try to avoid playing favourites as much as possible. Yes, it may affect performance in a raid situation in the short term, but if those less experienced players don't get the opportunity to learn and improve, especially if they want to but have a hard time saying so, then when your preferred team is broken up (eg. someone has to work late) you won't have any back-up that's competent.

Lastly, especially for large guilds, pick officers and RL's that want the job or delegate specific responsibilities, eg. one looks after raids, one looks after the guild bank, one of the altaholics does a lot of the crafting etc. For a GM, managing a guild can be a lot of work and having people to share the workload helps reduce the stress levels, which makes the guild experience better for all.

End of random ramblings.
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Re: Tips to Make Your Guild Awesome

Postby Shyrtandros » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:42 am

Our guild has a simple and effective way to be successful and have very happy members..



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Re: Tips to Make Your Guild Awesome

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:44 pm

Shyrtandros wrote:Our guild has a simple and effective way to be successful and have very happy members..



We have cookies!


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Re: Tips to Make Your Guild Awesome

Postby Shathus » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:39 am

Skye1013 wrote:
Shyrtandros wrote:Our guild has a simple and effective way to be successful and have very happy members..



We have cookies!


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Did you know he's not all about the cookies anymore? Because "cookies are a sometimes food..."


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