Tips to Make Your Guild Awesome

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Re: Tips to Make Your Guild Awesome

Postby Blackharon » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:55 am

Nikachelle wrote:
thatguy wrote:
fuzzygeek wrote:Would parents expect you to leave a football game and make your team (and the other team) wait because you had to wash dishes or do chores? :roll:


That's a really poor analogy. Commitment to a team sport/real life activity is entirely different than a commitment to a video game.

No, it's really not. Just like a sports team expects you to be there in order to play the game, the same is to be said about raiding.


Never thought of it like this but WoW is really a team game.
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Re: Tips to Make Your Guild Awesome

Postby cerwillis » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:04 am

thatguy wrote:
fuzzygeek wrote:Would parents expect you to leave a football game and make your team (and the other team) wait because you had to wash dishes or do chores? :roll:


That's a really poor analogy. Commitment to a team sport/real life activity is entirely different than a commitment to a video game.

In what way? There are other people involved, so it's not different at all. Putting aside respect for others, It's my opinion that parents may not realize the level of focus, preparation and teamwork that are required to be successful in a raid, and therefore they dismiss it on the level of power rangers reruns.
The difference in my mind is between planned raids and the teenage kid that jumps on every night and gets in a PuG raid, in that sense, it can be more akin to skateboarding than a team sport.
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Re: Tips to Make Your Guild Awesome

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:18 am

thatguy wrote:That's a really poor analogy. Commitment to a team sport/real life activity is entirely different than a commitment to a video game.


Please explain your reasoning. How is playing a video game not a "real life activity"? You play sports with other people. You raid with other people. In any team game people rely on you to do your job: this is the same whether you are the quarterback or main tank. To do well in either requires knowledge and preparation. Would you contend that the one involving sweat "matters more"? Would you also argue that construction work "matters more" than, say, programming?

I would argue that a commitment to other people in a common cause is a commitment, whether they're in the same room or across the world.

(one story my son and I tell about my wife: a few years ago when we were playing Diablo 2, we were in the middle of the shitty swamp zone. My son wanted to go to bed (said he was tired; admitted recently it was because he was scared -- he must have been 8 or 9 at the time). My wife said: "you can not go to bed until we've finished this level. We're not coming back here for you!"

She takes her Diablo pretty seriously.)
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Re: Tips to Make Your Guild Awesome

Postby thatguy » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:24 am

Nikachelle wrote:
thatguy wrote:
fuzzygeek wrote:Would parents expect you to leave a football game and make your team (and the other team) wait because you had to wash dishes or do chores? :roll:


That's a really poor analogy. Commitment to a team sport/real life activity is entirely different than a commitment to a video game.

No, it's really not. Just like a sports team expects you to be there in order to play the game, the same is to be said about raiding.


WoW doesn't help you get into college. WoW doesn't teach you anything about meaningful sacrifice. WoW doesn't help you build a foundation for being physically active the rest of your life. WoW doesn't teach you learn how to balance your life. It arguably does the opposite for all of these.

Yes, your raid group probably has a goal and you set aside time to accomplish that goal but that "goal" has no tangible value once you turn off the computer. Claiming that clicking buttons, having a giggle on vent, and staying up late is equal to real life activities and successes is a bad analogy.
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Re: Tips to Make Your Guild Awesome

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:37 am

Oh but I disagree. It teaches you how to work well with others, which can be applied to a workplace setting. If anything, raiding is more akin to having a job than it is to studying.

WoW has indeed taught me meaningful sacrifice, I give up a large bulk of my weekends in order to be there for my guild and our raiding. This was a choice I made and I've had to suffer consequences because of it. Some of which I've enjoyed, others which I haven't.

And as for hitting the off button and no longer having a tangible value... no way. I think about everyone in my raid on a daily basis. We only raid together two days a week but I think about each of them on a consistent basis. They don't "disappear" just because I turned my computer off. They are still apart of my life, even if I don't see them face to face every day.

And the way you describe raiding "clicking buttons, having a giggle on vent, and staying up late" is very different to how I describe raiding. I know it's not the same to everyone, but to those who take it a bit more seriously, it's a bit more than "having a giggle". And anyway, if you want to use that analogy, we could easily that it's no different than hanging out with your friends on a Friday night if you want to look at it that way. That doesn't help you get into college either or make you physically active either.
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Re: Tips to Make Your Guild Awesome

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:42 am

thatguy wrote:WoW doesn't help you get into college. WoW doesn't teach you anything about meaningful sacrifice. WoW doesn't help you build a foundation for being physically active the rest of your life. WoW doesn't teach you learn how to balance your life. It arguably does the opposite for all of these.

Yes, your raid group probably has a goal and you set aside time to accomplish that goal but that "goal" has no tangible value once you turn off the computer. Claiming that clicking buttons, having a giggle on vent, and staying up late is equal to real life activities and successes is a bad analogy.


Sure, sports can help you get into college, assuming you play the right ones to the right level. I question whether sports teaches you anything about "meaningful" sacrifice without some kind of context. In any case "meaningful sacrifice" can be learned from many places.

Physically active? Two people I used to work with were horribly overweight because they ruined their knees playing football in college and are barely mobile. They are also in their early thirties. So, it's great that they had a "foundation" for being physically active for the rest of their lives, but it's unfortunate that they're spending the last two thirds of their lives in pain.

WoW can teach you how to "balance" your life as well as any other activity that takes a lot of time: this is basic time management and prioritizing skills. These skills can be learned and applied to anything that requires discipline.

I would advocate learning everything from playing WoW about as much as I would advocate learning everything by playing football: that is, not at all. Balance still matters in all things. Did I mention my son recently earned his black belt? He's been studying karate for eleven years.

Tangible value? Perhaps we "value" different things. I don't have any connection to anyone on the various sports teams I've been on anymore; people I'm raiding with send me photos of their sonograms.

I can understand your position, but frankly it strikes me as being a very geriatric "video games are a waste of time!" stance. "Value" is what you make of it.

Pretty much wherever my son ends up going to college throughout the US, we're going to have a raider in the area who can help him settle into a new area. By comparison a local little league seems positively provincial.
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Re: Tips to Make Your Guild Awesome

Postby cerwillis » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:49 am

I played some sports as a child and a lot of video games. My brother played a lot of sports and some video games. I am a software developer, he is a real-estate agent. Who's experience helped them later in life?

You have to be very careful about classifying one interest as more legitimate than another, I have 2 words for anyone that wants to imply that I am a less successful person because I value "virtual" games over "real" ones.

I suppose if you are good enough at sports, you can be carried through college and given a million dollar contract, there is always that chance to hope for when you put your kids out on the field.
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Re: Tips to Make Your Guild Awesome

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:54 am

I do think we have to be careful about stating one is "better" than another. They're certainly different and will teach strengths in different areas, but at their core -- in team sports and in guilds -- the same general mechanics will apply.
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Re: Tips to Make Your Guild Awesome

Postby Shathus » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:57 am

They're both valuable in different ways and both have negatives too. If you play a sport, but happen to be a superstar, you get coddled for years and told how great you are, which often ends up causing problems down the road.

Playing with others in WoW in a raid type setting definitely can teach you a lot of things. How to interact with others, sharing (loot), contributing to a group, planning (class research) and others. Hell, I know I'VE learned and gotten better than things like people management and decision making type stuff since I started leading raids (and then a guild).

Now, granted if your kid is the trade chat troll, starts guild drama and can't deal with people, well then maybe he should build some life skills elsewhere too :)
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Re: Tips to Make Your Guild Awesome

Postby thatguy » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:00 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:Please explain your reasoning. How is playing a video game not a "real life activity"? You play sports with other people. You raid with other people. In any team game people rely on you to do your job: this is the same whether you are the quarterback or main tank. To do well in either requires knowledge and preparation. Would you contend that the one involving sweat "matters more"? Would you also argue that construction work "matters more" than, say, programming?

I would argue that a commitment to other people in a common cause is a commitment, whether they're in the same room or across the world.


I play sports because I don't want to die of a heart attack at the age of 45. Raiding doesn't offer me that benefit. :)

The connection that I still have with my college and high school teammates can never be replaced. In real life sports, you are out in the open and vulnerable on a very primal level.

In raiding, you screw up and you're given another chance. Yeah, you can own up to your mistake but you don't actually have to live with that mistake for very long. You release, rebuff, and forget about it.

If I failed in catching a TD, making a game changing shot, or making a play, I don't get it back. Period. I have to sit there and stew and figure out what I did wrong and what I can do to change it.

Comparing 5 minutes of thinking about what I did wrong versus having an entire offseason (3-6 months) to actually go back and train to get better isn't even in the same ballpark.

Claiming that raiding takes knowledge and preparation is silly. Did you watch the 6 minute video? Did you listen to the raid leader for 1 minute? Did you look over the logs for 5 minutes? Did you bring consumables and spec correctly? Gratz, you're ready.

On the other hand, training in a sport for 8-10 years to have one maybe two chances at accomplishing your goal? It's not even close.

WoW/raiding is a fantasy world that let's us forget the real world and have a laugh. Let's not try to aggrandize it.
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Re: Tips to Make Your Guild Awesome

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:06 pm

thatguy wrote:Claiming that raiding takes knowledge and preparation is silly. Did you watch the 6 minute video? Did you listen to the raid leader for 1 minute? Did you look over the logs for 5 minutes? Did you bring consumables and spec correctly? Gratz, you're ready.

Wow no! Not at all. How about all the hours you had to build up your gear in order to be ready for raiding? You had to flex your online muscles in order to be ready to play at the highest level. Same applies to sports. You're skipping steps here. You can't level to 80 and then hop into raids without hours of preparation behind it. Getting geared, enchanted, gemmed, getting the gold to fund all that as well!
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Re: Tips to Make Your Guild Awesome

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:16 pm

thatguy wrote:
fuzzygeek wrote:Please explain your reasoning. How is playing a video game not a "real life activity"? You play sports with other people. You raid with other people. In any team game people rely on you to do your job: this is the same whether you are the quarterback or main tank. To do well in either requires knowledge and preparation. Would you contend that the one involving sweat "matters more"? Would you also argue that construction work "matters more" than, say, programming?

I would argue that a commitment to other people in a common cause is a commitment, whether they're in the same room or across the world.


I play sports because I don't want to die of a heart attack at the age of 45. Raiding doesn't offer me that benefit. :)

The connection that I still have with my college and high school teammates can never be replaced. In real life sports, you are out in the open and vulnerable on a very primal level.

In raiding, you screw up and you're given another chance. Yeah, you can own up to your mistake but you don't actually have to live with that mistake for very long. You release, rebuff, and forget about it.

If I failed in catching a TD, making a game changing shot, or making a play, I don't get it back. Period. I have to sit there and stew and figure out what I did wrong and what I can do to change it.

Comparing 5 minutes of thinking about what I did wrong versus having an entire offseason (3-6 months) to actually go back and train to get better isn't even in the same ballpark.

Claiming that raiding takes knowledge and preparation is silly. Did you watch the 6 minute video? Did you listen to the raid leader for 1 minute? Did you look over the logs for 5 minutes? Did you bring consumables and spec correctly? Gratz, you're ready.

On the other hand, training in a sport for 8-10 years to have one maybe two chances at accomplishing your goal? It's not even close.

WoW/raiding is a fantasy world that let's us forget the real world and have a laugh. Let's not try to aggrandize it.


You're employing a lot of personal investment in this argument, which I think is a bad road to go down. A lot of us, myself included, could make many of the same claims you do about sports, but instead for video games in their lives. (except maybe the health one, which is an entirely unrelated and horrible discussion that I do not believe has any place in this thread)
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Re: Tips to Make Your Guild Awesome

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:23 pm

thatguy wrote:On the other hand, training in a sport for 8-10 years to have one maybe two chances at accomplishing your goal? It's not even close.

WoW/raiding is a fantasy world that let's us forget the real world and have a laugh. Let's not try to aggrandize it.


Training for 8-10 years to have one maybe two chances at accomplishing a goal seems like poor resource allocation to me, personally. But hey, some people really value that, so more power to them. I might say that it really seems like a waste of time, but then, I'd just be the reverse case, eh?

Aggrandizing? Hmm. Perhaps not -- I'm just not being as dismissive as you are. You can learn a lot about everything and anything if you're looking to learn; some people need very primal and visceral stimulus to learn anything, some people don't. That doesn't make one type of person better than the other -- just better suited for different things.

As far as finding some virtue in marinading in memories of missed shots for months at a time -- well, again, if you're into that kind of thing, great. I find angst a waste of time and energy, so whether it's 5 minutes or 6 months makes little difference to me: in either case I would argue you're better off fixing the problem and getting on with your life.

Performing anything to any kind of skill level requires knowledge and preparation. Do video games require less than sports games? Sure. No one is arguing that. It doesn't mean that one is zero and one is over nine thousand. Don't be silly.

So far you've said my team analogy is bad, but all you've done is present how things are different in degrees. Sure, I'll agree with you: sports and video games require different degrees of resource allocation. You still haven't invalidated my point: a commitment to other people is a commitment, whether it's on the playground or across the internet.
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Re: Tips to Make Your Guild Awesome

Postby thatguy » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:28 pm

I'll bow out from this thread. I've necro'ed it horribly and haven't added anything to it. I agree that people have their own differing values and I respect that. I shouldn't have tried to force my own values on you all here. I need to remember that this is the internet and you can't win at it.

I apologize for stirring the pot.
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Re: Tips to Make Your Guild Awesome

Postby Trav » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:05 pm

It's fine to have an opinion, and it's fine to discuss it, but you have to realize that no one is going to win. The true value of something like this is what points are brought up and discussed maturely, and the opportunity of a different perspective. It's when you (BTW, when I am saying "you," it's the general you, not you specifically) try and "win" an argument like this that things start to have a negative effect.
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