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Mana Issues?

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Mana Issues?

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:16 am

I feel retarded for even posting this, but I need help. Lately, in heroics, I go out of mana very, very easily. Despite using Divine Plea and POTTING (ffs I feel like I'm back in BC chain potting) and judging on cooldown, I seem to have massive issues keeping my mana at a reasonable place. (Not ALWAYS mind you, but the instances where I'm oom tend to stick out in my head more than the ones where I have full mana.)

I've noticed a few things. Particularly that Holy Wrath eats away at it very quickly as does Consecration, but less so (I think). And I started dropping Holy Wrath from my rotation but then I was having aggro issues.

I usually tend to notice issues mostly in Vortex Pinnacle. Last night was particularly bad and that first boss it's absolutely guaranteed that I'll be oom by the end of the fight.

I honestly can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. I'll often drink between packs if I have time, pot when I desperately need it and judge on cooldown. Sanctuary is built in, so it's not that either.

Any ideas?
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Re: Mana Issues?

Postby RedAces » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:21 am

hey,

are you using the Glyph of the Asthetic Crusader? -30% Mana cost for Crusader Strike is nice for that.
Keep in mind, that while caster rarely melee you, you won't get mana from sanctuary (no block, no avoid) and if you use consecration (without Hallowed Ground) you'll be oom in seconds. I tanked almost any cata heroic without consecration, so try dropping that completely. If you're having AE-threat problems try the HotR-glyph it'll get you a lot of extra damage.

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Re: Mana Issues?

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:26 am

I actually had one point in Hallowed Ground up until last week when I decided to try Grand Crusader out for the first time (I'm not totally sold on it). Thinking maybe I should go back to it now. I was using Consecration for large packs and I don't have the glyph for hammer of the righteous.

Ascetic Crusader glyph seems a bit... dumb for raids. But I realize it may help me in heroics. Not sure if it's worth switching back and forth constantly though (plus expensive). That being said, isn't the mana cost of Crusader Strike next to nothing? I never thought it was that large.
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Re: Mana Issues?

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:26 am

I actually had one point in Hallowed Ground up until last week when I decided to try Grand Crusader out for the first time (I'm not totally sold on it). Thinking maybe I should go back to it now. I was using Consecration for large packs and I don't have the glyph for hammer of the righteous.

Ascetic Crusader glyph seems a bit... dumb for raids. But I realize it may help me in heroics. Not sure if it's worth switching back and forth constantly though (plus expensive). That being said, isn't the mana cost of Crusader Strike next to nothing? I never thought it was that large.
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Re: Mana Issues?

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:30 am

Just noticed my thread is identical to his one: http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... =viewtopic

Oops.
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Re: Mana Issues?

Postby culhag » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:45 am

Just noticed you triple posted. Oops ! :P

How can you not be sold on Grand Crusader ? Procs are FUN! and this one is especially useful for the interrupt and silence.

I'm still running with 2/2 Hallowed Grounds. I guess it's not very important but it helps a bit for aoe situations (which happen more and more as we gear up)

And I'm perfectly fine without Reckoning.
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Re: Mana Issues?

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:53 am

culhag wrote:Just noticed you triple posted. Oops ! :P

How can you not be sold on Grand Crusader ? Procs are FUN! and this one is especially useful for the interrupt and silence.

I'm still running with 2/2 Hallowed Grounds. I guess it's not very important but it helps a bit for aoe situations (which happen more and more as we gear up)

And I'm perfectly fine without Reckoning.

Grand Crusader just never seems to "sit" well in the rotation. I find by the time it procs, it was only a second off CD anyway.
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Re: Mana Issues?

Postby Njall » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:56 am

Nikachelle wrote:
I'm still running with 2/2 Hallowed Grounds. I guess it's not very important but it helps a bit for aoe situations (which happen more and more as we gear up)

And I'm perfectly fine without Reckoning.

Grand Crusader just never seems to "sit" well in the rotation. I find by the time it procs, it was only a second off CD anyway.[/quote]

I have it in there just the one point. I'm liking how GbtL works and just sort of Meh over Hallowed Ground. I may go back to having 1 point in it. The threat value of Reckoning is pretty good - I really noticed when I pulled it out of my spec for more Hallowed Ground. After a few days, I put Reckoning back in.

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Re: Mana Issues?

Postby RedAces » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:05 am

hey,

try 2/2 Grand Crusader for heroics, you'll never want to use Cons anymore, because you can throw the discus! I use the Glyph of the Ascetic Crusader because I go oom in raids alot due to heavy usage of our shiny AE-Hot-thingy (and throwing flash heals around to people in need).

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Re: Mana Issues?

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:30 am

I manage to go OOM even without using Consec... HotR and Holy Wrath are pretty expensive
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Re: Mana Issues?

Postby theckhd » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:10 am

Consecration and Holy Wrath are both mana hogs. Holy Wrath is 20% of base mana, Consecration is 55%. By comparison, CS is 10%, Judgement is 5% (though obviously a net gain), HotR is 12%, and AS is a measly 6%. If my memory serves, AS is around 1k-1.5k mana for me, while Holy Wrath is 4k+ (and Cons must be around 12k).

This makes Grand Crusader really good for trash, because it's like hitting 3 targets with SotR, and it's incredibly cheap.

If I start a pull at full mana, I can usually sustain a 9H9 AoE rotation without any trouble. Caster packs are more likely to cause a problem because of the lower Sanctuary return. However, this is another area where Grand Crusader shines, because not only is it cheaper to cast than HW/Cons, it also makes those caster mobs melee you, giving you more mana from Sanctuary.

If you consider how many HW and Cons casts you can replace with Grand Crusader and calculate the mana savings, I wouldn't be at all surprised if it came out as comparable or better mana savings than Hallowed Ground. And probably more net damage for 3-4 mobs as well.

Managing mana is something we're not used to doing, but I think Blizz has done a pretty good job of making it relevant so far. The more I've tanked, the better I've gotten at modulating HW and Cons usage based on mana constraints and my perceived threat needs ("Are these mobs stuck to me? Yes? Ok, I can skip HW/Cons this cycle and regen a bit for the next pack").

I think that as people catch on to this, mana management will be one of those little things that distinguishes a "really good" or "great" tank from a "good" tank.

Or we could just all end up tanking with Insight, and ignore mana altogether. *shrug*
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Re: Mana Issues?

Postby Flex » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:15 am

Something is being done wrong, find out what it is and correct* it. Though missing back-to-back Judgements after dropping a Consecrate sucks.

Common methods to correct it:
Don't use Consecration if you don't need it.
Down to 2 mobs? Switch to Crusader Strike and spread the love between them.
Spec Grand Crusader and replace Holy Wrath with it.
Skip Holy Wrath completely.
HotR is more than enough to hold threat over healing, if DPS pulls tell them to assist.

As an aside to rage playing people, have they fixed rage gain from casters yet?
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Re: Mana Issues?

Postby Shathus » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:06 pm

Another thing that can drain mana near the end of a fight (i think) is HoW, at least for boss fights. 12% of base mana per cast can help empty out a low mana pool, especially in a fight when you're not getting melee'd. I can probably count on my fingers the # of times I've used consecration, just haven't see the need vs the cost. Especially if it's a dragonkin/elemental pack, i use HW for the stun. If not and I'm low on mana, i'll just skip casting HW and stick to CS, J and AS.

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Re: Mana Issues?

Postby Chunes » Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:16 pm

Nika, I think you should give GrC a shot.

I only drop consecrate as a last resort when all my other stuff is on cooldown and I have a gap in the rotation, ONLY if I have mana. Holy wrath for AoE is actually pretty shitty over 5 targets due to the meteor effect. So strangely, I only use it for 3 or less targets usually unless I have nothing else to cast. This is where grand crusader comes in though. It procs pretty frequently and while a lot of them go to waste since you either have a CS->ShoR to do or you have to prioritize judgement.

Still, I can't count the times where I would have had to use a shitty HW or consecrate and AS popped instead.

The other side to this argument is related to your threat. If your threat is fine in heroics, then stop using HotR so much since it's kind of a mana hog and switch to tab CS's, judge on cooldown and DP if you need it.

If your threat is not OK in heroics, either discipline your DPS better to assist you rather than wantonly AoE'ing everything, use salvs, request tricks/MD's etc.

Or is it a matter of gear? I admit, I haven't checked your armory and while I stayed more or less within the gear curve of my most aggressive DPS, it may be hard to manage uber geared DPS threat when your tank gear is only so so.
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Re: Mana Issues?

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:18 pm

grand crusader is awesome.
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