Tank Bot - Fun with PuGs

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Re: Tank Bot - Fun with PuGs

Postby Koatanga » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:19 pm

Reckoni wrote:That sounds nice and all but thats assuming that the majority wants to tank, which I dont believe is true. Alot of people play dps for the fact that tanking is too stressful, thats why I dont heal, for example. Ive tried before but the pressure stresses me out and I end up not enjoying the game as much. It still gives the tanks more freedom and would maybe even work the opposite way that you intended. Tanks getting points for alts to queue faster will result in more alt runs from tanks, sure however that doesnt guarantee every dps will have their own tank alt and the game would lose even more balance.

Thats just my thought atleast


You actually don't need the majority to want to tank, since 1 tanked instances gives 3 DPS and 1 healer a run as well, so it's a pretty friendly ratio.

He runs his usual daily one, then runs a second for the queue jump. The second creates a run for 4 other people, whereas his alt only takes up one spot. That's a net gain of 3 people out of the queue.
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Re: Tank Bot - Fun with PuGs

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:23 pm

If you have the "tank points" only useable by the char that tanks... then you don't have to worry about the alts. It would only allow hybrids to occasionally dps/heal instead of being forced to always tank.

However, I think there should be (for at least 1, maybe 2 dps slots per group) a priority to dps only classes, since they have no option to tank/heal whatsoever without an alt tank/healer.

So, for each 5-man, you'd have your tank (with his points), healer (maybe also with points, but accumulate slower unless a shortage becomes more apparent), 1 slot for tank/heal point user dps, 1 for dps-only classes, and 1 slot for anyone else.

If there aren't any dps-only or point users, it defaults back to anyone else in queue (though I can't foresee that ever really happening.)
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Re: Tank Bot - Fun with PuGs

Postby Dazhbog » Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:33 pm

Koatanga wrote:
Reckoni wrote:Im considering completely going from the nice guy to acting like a total douche in 5mans, maybe I will finally get the proper respect that way among the lolaoespam wrath babies that make my pugs miserable


I'm pretty grumpy in PuGs these days. When the mage sheep-pulls because it takes too long to wait until I mark skull and throw my shield, I get annoyed and say things like "next time you pull without being asked, one of us is leaving".

I think a lot of tanks are douchebags because they can be. They are in demand and nobody can run without them. Nobody would put up with robotic DPS causing wipes and slowing down the run - he might even be kicked just for RPing. Slightly less likely for a healer to get kicked over it, but would definitely happen if he failed to heal because the tank didn't reply "Y" to some asinine RP thing.



The temptation to reply "Y SO SRS?" is really high here :-P Barring taking it to the point where it's completely fucking with the group (leaving the instance, killing yourself needlessly), then any group that kicks players simply for a little fun and games/RP isn't a group I want to be running with anyway. Always good to not be an asshole, but it's a GAME for C'thulhu's sake. I don't log on to mindless grind heroics like I'm being paid to do it.

The tank shortage is nothing new, and if people are upset with long queue times, they can go back to the old fashioned way of doing things: actually making friends (gasp!) with their server tanks and putting a group together that way. DPS complaining that it takes soooooo long to queue always get an eyeroll from me; get your tank buddy to join you, and go have some fun!
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Re: Tank Bot - Fun with PuGs

Postby Vort » Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:03 pm

^^^
What Dazhbog said.
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Re: Tank Bot - Fun with PuGs

Postby PsiVen » Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:50 pm

Queue points would be pretty asinine in practice, I think. DPS don't avoid tanking just because they don't want to tank, it's that they aren't tanks. Having to wait in line when I do dungeons on my druid or mage does not encourage me to run more dungeons on my paladin, and it wouldn't be fair to others if I got shorter lines on all of my characters for having a tank that I run with too.

When the mage sheep-pulls because it takes too long to wait until I mark skull and throw my shield, I get annoyed and say things like "next time you pull without being asked, one of us is leaving".

If you have a mage sheeping, they should be sheep-pulling before you throw your shield. They should obviously make sure you're ready, but being grumpy about it when you were ready is just, you know, being grumpy.
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Re: Tank Bot - Fun with PuGs

Postby theckhd » Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:20 pm

I think a "queue points" system would be tricky to implement fairly. Gaming the queue is always going to put someone at a disadvantage.

What would really cut down on queue times would be to make queuing for more than one heroic a day attractive to tanks. People on my server occasionally offer 300-400g for a tank to get their daily heroic done quickly. If the LFD system gave you 200+g and JP for your second and subsequent random heroics, I think a lot more tanks would be doing so.

Of course, this risks having more DPS queuing for the extra rewards as well, so it might not work out quite as well. They might have to modify the reward based on the role you queue for.

Alternatively, you could offer any number of other benefits - extra reputation, a reward bag with a 346 BoE blue and a chance for epic BoEs, a barrel of fish, a random assortment of uncut gems, whatever.
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Re: Tank Bot - Fun with PuGs

Postby Koatanga » Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:56 pm

The temptation to reply "Y SO SRS?" is really high here :-P Barring taking it to the point where it's completely fucking with the group (leaving the instance, killing yourself needlessly), then any group that kicks players simply for a little fun and games/RP isn't a group I want to be running with anyway. Always good to not be an asshole, but it's a GAME for C'thulhu's sake. I don't log on to mindless grind heroics like I'm being paid to do it.[/quote]
In the video the tank pulls the boss then auto-runs into a wall. One of the DPS gets aggro and dies. Looks like they reset the boss, while the tank contemplates zoning out of the instance instead of doing any actual tanking of the boss.

That's not fun or entertaining, that's just griefing the group, IMO.

It's a sore point for me because I am a tank and I tank a lot running this person's lock through this, or shaman through that, helping to gear their hunter, etc.

But when it's time to run my shaman (healer), I have to hit the LFG queue because no one wants to tank. It's bad enough I get undergeared tanks who under-utilize CC and DPS who stand in the fire without people basically griefing the run for their own lols.

Whether the tank quits because people didn't want to play his little RP game or is kicked for being a douche, it's back to the LFG to wait for a while until we find another tank who bought PvP gear to meet the heroic iLvl minimum.

And it's also a sore spot because in this game more than any other I have ever played, people treat others like NPCs. Anonymity gives them some sort of license to be asshats.

It pisses me off when people ninja gear and say "dude it's only pixels". It's not pixels, it's people. People behaving pretty freaking badly to other people.
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Re: Tank Bot - Fun with PuGs

Postby cerwillis » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:05 pm

How about this idea, although most tanks capped their JPs quickly this tier; You queue as tank and finish the run you get 2X JPs (or VPs for heroics). Would this just cause bad people to try to tank, or would this encourage balance and help tanks gear faster and as a result have better PUGs?
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Re: Tank Bot - Fun with PuGs

Postby Vort » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:06 pm

theckhd wrote:a barrel of fish


wtb. Deepsea Sagefish are annoying enough to get for my healers.
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Re: Tank Bot - Fun with PuGs

Postby Koatanga » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:13 pm

cerwillis wrote:How about this idea, although most tanks capped their JPs quickly this tier; You queue as tank and finish the run you get 2X JPs (or VPs for heroics). Would this just cause bad people to try to tank, or would this encourage balance and help tanks gear faster and as a result have better PUGs?

Just making JPs transferrable to alts would help. I would queue as a tank for the fast queue time and gear up my alts.
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Re: Tank Bot - Fun with PuGs

Postby theckhd » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:19 pm

Or making JP gear Bind on Account. Or making other useful items purchasable with JP.

For example, if I could buy a couple flasks with the JP I got from running a heroic, or a BoE Chaos Orb that I could sell on the AH, I'd probably do more random heroics. I like tanking a lot more than I do playing the AH.
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Re: Tank Bot - Fun with PuGs

Postby Kelaan » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:48 pm

I wish PvP gear were purchasable with JP :(
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Re: Tank Bot - Fun with PuGs

Postby PsiVen » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:47 pm

cerwillis wrote:How about this idea, although most tanks capped their JPs quickly this tier; You queue as tank and finish the run you get 2X JPs (or VPs for heroics). Would this just cause bad people to try to tank, or would this encourage balance and help tanks gear faster and as a result have better PUGs?


The problem with additional rewards (other than gold) is that tanks already get everything they need faster because of instant queues. The goal of any incentive system needs to be that you encourage tanks to queue for dungeons more often than DPS, as encouraging everyone to queue more often doesn't change anything. While allowing JP to purchase Chaos Orbs or other commodities would improve the LFD experience by re-introducing more quality players who've been there before, it wouldn't improve queue times because tanks would still more quickly make the transition from "must run for gear" to "should run for gold." If raid-geared tanks who need no loot from heroics can be encouraged to run more than once a day, we also need to make sure that raid-geared DPS aren't equally encouraged.

Thus, any system that properly fixes the DPS queue problem will reek of favoritism and have abominable PR. I believe that the only solution is one that I proposed in beta: radically changing the foundation of WoW groups to a 6-player format with 12/24 player raids that equally reflect group roles and more closely match the trends of the playerbase. The only real alternative is to keep adding tank hybrids and hope that more and more people will pick up tanking as a hobby until the trends of the playerbase match the group size model.
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Re: Tank Bot - Fun with PuGs

Postby Koatanga » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:06 pm

They could make the DPS specs of tanking-capable classes be really really bad, but that would probably reduce the player base, not to mention the massive amounts of QQ it would produce.

Maybe the solution is to have an actual tank bot. No, I don't mean a mechanised douchebag, I mean a vehicle that any person could hop into into to become the tank for that instance. It would be able to gen threat and to taunt, and would give a scaling avoidance/mitigation based on the driver's gear.

In every aspect it would be the inferior of a proper player tank of similar gear level to that of the driver, but people could tick an option in LFG whereby they agree to run with a tankbot, or to drive the tankbot. Then the LFG could give them a real-tank instance or a tank-bot instance. A party could consist of 4 DPS, a healer, and no tank. One of the DPS would hop in the tankbot, and away they go.

Same could be done for a healbot or even a DPS bot (though there would be no point other than the experience of driving the silly vehicle and probably an achievement for having driven all of them).

It would certainly work for my alts - since I know how to tank I would happily drive the machine to speed the queue time for my alt.

It doesn't even screw up raid numbers, since you don't need a 1:4 ratio of tanks to non-tanks in 25-man raiding.
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Re: Tank Bot - Fun with PuGs

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:09 pm

That's a fascinating idea Kotanga. And it would feed their stupid vehicle jones!
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