Ghostcrawler speaks about future patches

[Flex]

We're into it many weeks now at level 85 with Vengeance and raiding. I disliked Vengeance at 80 and the consensus was "wait until 85 before you complain. It was designed with level 85 in mind".

Here I am at 85, Vengeance mechanic still sucks. It's not as bad because we do get hit harder so it does actually stack up in raids. But I'm already at the point where heroics it doesn't stack. The start of fights can get a little scary in raids sometimes, etc.

In other words, it's not as bad as 80, but the same problem still exists.

You mean the problem where we don't do enough damage with 0 vengeance to have aggro over DPS? I'm not having the same experience. I do more than enough damage with 0 vengeance to have aggro as long as the DPS are actually attacking my target. I mean, maybe my DPS suck? I don't think so. But in any case, I don't see the issue.

I think your DPS might not be stellar. I run with two, very competent frost DK's as well as a hunter that is a phenomenal player. All three of them ride my ass in threat in heroics. The hunter's a non-issue since he can rely on feign, but the two frost DK's will consistently pull 18-20k tps on single target, while I'm doing everything I can to stay ahead of them @ 22-25k tps.

It's not really a big deal once I have like 30% vengeance and I get a ShoR crit or two, but I can see this becoming a problem if DPS scales quicker than our stam -> vengeance scales. I like vengeance for it's function in raid content, however I still think it suffers in heroics because it does not stack fast enough or high enough.

I'm @ 28 expertise and hitcapped as well which makes this more troublesome to me.

So 18K-20K sustained DPS is reachable?

[theckhd]

Threat seems to be in a good place -- good tanks don’t have much of a problem, but they can’t “phone it in” either.

Bullshit. When the best tanks in the world, playing with the best DPS in the world, can:

• tank with Seal of Insight
• dump all of their holy power into WoG
• spec every survivability talent possible
• run with under 1% hit and 10 expertise thanks to reforging

and still have 3x the threat of the nearest DPS class within the first minute of an encounter, something's not right. They damn well can phone it in, which is why they can completely ignore threat in current content.

[Nikachelle]

You mean the problem where we don't do enough damage with 0 vengeance to have aggro over DPS? I'm not having the same experience. I do more than enough damage with 0 vengeance to have aggro as long as the DPS are actually attacking my target. I mean, maybe my DPS suck? I don't think so. But in any case, I don't see the issue.

I think your DPS might not be stellar. I run with two, very competent frost DK's as well as a hunter that is a phenomenal player. All three of them ride my ass in threat in heroics. The hunter's a non-issue since he can rely on feign, but the two frost DK's will consistently pull 18-20k tps on single target, while I'm doing everything I can to stay ahead of them @ 22-25k tps.

It's not really a big deal once I have like 30% vengeance and I get a ShoR crit or two, but I can see this becoming a problem if DPS scales quicker than our stam -> vengeance scales. I like vengeance for it's function in raid content, however I still think it suffers in heroics because it does not stack fast enough or high enough.

I'm @ 28 expertise and hitcapped as well which makes this more troublesome to me.

So 18K-20K sustained DPS is reachable?

tps, not dps

[Flex]

tps, not dps

Outside of a few specific abilities that produce extra threat 1tps==1dps.

[Chunes]

So 18K-20K sustained DPS is reachable?

Haven't logged it or anything, but I distinctly remember seeing moments where my frost DK's are are spiking between 18 and 20k dps/tps. They don't live there all the time, but when threat matters, and they're riding me like that, I tend to feel it. Howling blast proc + obliterate crit proc + Hb proc + strike crit + strike crit + lololol is what I have chasing me pretty much every pull.

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal of course.

The hunter/DK/DK all pull 16k min sustained on fights that don't require them to sacrifice DPS for survivability.

[Shathus]

I don't claim to be a Top 10 tankadin or anything, and I haven't done any real raid content yet, but in heroics on single target bosses, I've never had any issues with threat at all, except for one frost DK pug in heroic GB. Think he did 13k for the last boss and that's the only time I've ever had to look at Omen and watch out for him pulling. Granted I suppose that fight has some mechanics where you're not attacking the boss that could allow DPS to catch up. I've seen our Surv hunter creep up early on in some fights, but I think that's just a crit string

[Sabindeus]

So 18K-20K sustained DPS is reachable?

Haven't logged it or anything, but I distinctly remember seeing moments where my frost DK's are are spiking between 18 and 20k dps/tps. They don't live there all the time, but when threat matters, and they're riding me like that, I tend to feel it. Howling blast proc + obliterate crit proc + Hb proc + strike crit + strike crit + lololol is what I have chasing me pretty much every pull.

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal of course.

The hunter/DK/DK all pull 16k min sustained on fights that don't require them to sacrifice DPS for survivability.

I know that DKs do a lot of damage right now and Howling Blast bursts pretty high, but none of my DPS are Hunters or DKs so I guess that might be a difference. Could be that both those specs frontload their damage more than other specs which have more ramp up time? Or that they are just plain OP and will get nerfed? I still am not convinced I run with bad DPS.

[Sabindeus]

I don't claim to be a Top 10 tankadin or anything, and I haven't done any real raid content yet, but in heroics on single target bosses, I've never had any issues with threat at all, except for one frost DK pug in heroic GB. Think he did 13k for the last boss and that's the only time I've ever had to look at Omen and watch out for him pulling. Granted I suppose that fight has some mechanics where you're not attacking the boss that could allow DPS to catch up. I've seen our Surv hunter creep up early on in some fights, but I think that's just a crit string

soooo frost DKs and hunters are just plain OP then?

[Chunes]

I don't claim to be a Top 10 tankadin or anything, and I haven't done any real raid content yet, but in heroics on single target bosses, I've never had any issues with threat at all, except for one frost DK pug in heroic GB. Think he did 13k for the last boss and that's the only time I've ever had to look at Omen and watch out for him pulling. Granted I suppose that fight has some mechanics where you're not attacking the boss that could allow DPS to catch up. I've seen our Surv hunter creep up early on in some fights, but I think that's just a crit string

soooo frost DKs and hunters are just plain OP then?

That's my take on it. Survival hunters can crank out some really impressive numbers with little ramp up time. DK's are even worse. HB crits, while significant, pale in comparison to a well-geared obliterate crit. Considering the fact that the free HB can proc off one of these obliterate crits, and the next melee swing can proc another obliterate crit, proccing another free HB and so on, I think they could potentally string 3 massive obliterate crits and 3 HB crits within 6 gcd's if the stars aligned perfectly, they had death runes up and blood tapped. If not, then I know for a fact they can HB/OB/HB/OB/HB, both obliterates being crits and as many HB crits as they are lucky enough to get. Damage increased by diseases on the OB's.

My main complaint with frost DK's is aoe packs. If they see the free HB light up, they cannot and will not let it sit. Even if CC is right next to us, they wantonly mash the fuck out of that HB button. Granted, they do it just to piss me off and we always survive the fights. It's just annoying that's all.

[Sabindeus]

I don't claim to be a Top 10 tankadin or anything, and I haven't done any real raid content yet, but in heroics on single target bosses, I've never had any issues with threat at all, except for one frost DK pug in heroic GB. Think he did 13k for the last boss and that's the only time I've ever had to look at Omen and watch out for him pulling. Granted I suppose that fight has some mechanics where you're not attacking the boss that could allow DPS to catch up. I've seen our Surv hunter creep up early on in some fights, but I think that's just a crit string

soooo frost DKs and hunters are just plain OP then?

That's my take on it. Survival hunters can crank out some really impressive numbers with little ramp up time. DK's are even worse. HB crits, while significant, pale in comparison to a well-geared obliterate crit. Considering the fact that the free HB can proc off one of these obliterate crits, and the next melee swing can proc another obliterate crit, proccing another free HB and so on, I think they could potentally string 3 massive obliterate crits and 3 HB crits within 6 gcd's if the stars aligned perfectly, they had death runes up and blood tapped. If not, then I know for a fact they can HB/OB/HB/OB/HB, both obliterates being crits and as many HB crits as they are lucky enough to get. Damage increased by diseases on the OB's.

My main complaint with frost DK's is aoe packs. If they see the free HB light up, they cannot and will not let it sit. Even if CC is right next to us, they wantonly mash the fuck out of that HB button. Granted, they do it just to piss me off and we always survive the fights. It's just annoying that's all.

Having played a frost DK, I feel like not hitting HB when Rime procs is pretty much just throwing DPS down the drain... Unlike pretty much every other melee class, their "cleave" got buffed.

[Chunes]

I agree. There is no damage cap on it and it does not reduce in efficacy with a hojillion targets. I never understood the double standard on this.

[inthedrops]

In regard to my comment about DPS in Heroics, yes it's frost DK's that get a good crit streak, and Warriors who don't wait long enough to hold back that AoE thing they do. Boomkins give me a run for my money too. No one else really. And it's only heroics or right on the pull for trash packs in raids.

BTW, I just equipped two +hit trinkets and ran some heroics and it's not an issue when you do that.....yet.

I probably should mention that in raids I have 1.75% hit and 22 expertise.

I ran those heroics with 6.85% hit and 34 expertise. Zero issues with threat with one of our DK's that is often an issue. Didn't have any Boomkins or Warriors though.

Basically, it's the same issue as WotLK at lvl 80, just maybe not quite as scary since Vengeance stacks quicker at 85 than 80. But the whole "Don't have to worry about threat after first 60 seconds" is completely stupid at 85. It's off kilter.

[DJSticky]

Threat seems to be in a good place -- good tanks don’t have much of a problem, but they can’t “phone it in” either.

Bullshit. When the best tanks in the world, playing with the best DPS in the world, can:

• tank with Seal of Insight
• dump all of their holy power into WoG
• spec every survivability talent possible
• run with under 1% hit and 10 expertise thanks to reforging

and still have 3x the threat of the nearest DPS class within the first minute of an encounter, something's not right. They damn well can phone it in, which is why they can completely ignore threat in current content.

So here's the question. Who DOESN"T tank with seal of insight and WoG nearly 100% of the time? Every I've talked to shares the same experience.

[Aradhir]

I use SOV for about the first 20 seconds of a boss fight, if only to hang on to the glyph's expertise and ensure that my first couple of SoR's don't get parried/dodged, resulting in the above DK/hunter pulling threat before I get some vengeance stacked.

After that 20 seconds, though, yeah. SoI all the way.

[benebarba]

Threat seems to be in a good place -- good tanks don’t have much of a problem, but they can’t “phone it in” either.

Bullshit. When the best tanks in the world, playing with the best DPS in the world, can:

• tank with Seal of Insight
• dump all of their holy power into WoG
• spec every survivability talent possible
• run with under 1% hit and 10 expertise thanks to reforging

and still have 3x the threat of the nearest DPS class within the first minute of an encounter, something's not right. They damn well can phone it in, which is why they can completely ignore threat in current content.

So here's the question. Who DOESN"T tank with seal of insight and WoG nearly 100% of the time? Every I've talked to shares the same experience.

hmm... maybe I've been doin' it wrong (though I am still in normal 5-mans): I keep SoT up, and dump my HoPo into ShoTR or Inquisition, with an occasional WoG (certainly to use any leftover HoPo after a fight). But I definitely don't have threat issues, I just preferred to keep it that way. Maybe I'll have to see what happens with insight and using more WoG.