Holy Power/Rotation issue in raids

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Holy Power/Rotation issue in raids

Postby Thark » Wed Dec 15, 2010 1:11 pm

I wanted to get some feedback about how everyone else is using their Holy Power so far this expansion.

So far, in the raids that I've done, I've found that threat is not an issue. I've reforged most of the Hit/Expertise off of my gear, and use a terrible rotation, and people aren't close to me on threat after the first few seconds. This leads to the second point of how to use holy power.

Besides an initial Shield of the Righteous on the pull, I've used pretty much every Holy Power on Word of Glory. With what I've seen of healing, it's pretty necessary most of the time. I don't want to argue that healing myself is bad. I think it's good, and it's something we should have to pay attention to - my problem is with what it leads to.

There is no real benefit to stacking up Holy Power to cast Word of Glory. Because my threat is fine, and any holy power I generate is used to heal myself, it almost leads to a rotation of Crusader Strike -> Word of Glory and toss in an occasional judgment. It's mindless and there is no decision in there, and it's about as effective as anything else.

I really liked the sequence of spells that we used in WOTLK, where we generated Holy Power to pull off a strong Shield of the Righteous, but at the same time I disliked how it was up to 40% of my TPS/DPS in some situations. Now, I'm never using that spell, and still holding threat. I feel like the fun and decision making of a rotation has been removed.

I don't have any real good suggestions, but wanted to see if others had this same problem, and perhaps what others have done about it.

As it stands now, I've started to spec/glyph for Word of Glory (which is fine), and mostly spam it during encounters (mindless). If I suggested that I had to do more things to hold threat, that would just result in a threat nerf, but not fix the other issues where my concentration is more like a healer now. I spend as much time watching health bars as anything else. Perhaps if Word of Glory were to receive a buff where it would be 1x as powerful at 1 Holy Power, 1.25x as powerful at 2 Holy Power, and 1.5x as powerful with 3 Holy Power there would be a reason to stockpile it.

Perhaps if it healed for more it might help to? Argaloth was the best fight I could use to compare Paladin to DK tanks, so it's a real limited set. But I noted that despite using all my holy power on Word of Glory, he did 2x the self healing I did. It's offset by the fact that I probably take a little less damage overall, but I get the impression that Death Strike is a more normal part of their rotation.

In the end, I'm just worried that the current state of things seems to lead to a situation where a simple Crusader Strike -> Word of Glory rotation is about the extent of things. I hope things will change as we all become better geared and healer mana is less of an issue, but what about when new content hits again? Will a mindless rotation return? Is this a concern for anyone else?
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Re: Holy Power/Rotation issue in raids

Postby sculder » Wed Dec 15, 2010 1:36 pm

Whatever works for you is what you should use. If you're interested in what works for me, I use word of glory after a few initial shield slams and can stay alive easier and longer than equally geared DK, Warrior, and bear tanks. I typically have one druid healing me full time who has no mana problems in sub 10 minute fights, which gives me freedom to not use word of glory if the fight is more of a dps race, considering I can pull between 10 and 25k dps depending on the fight.

If your runs are not to the point where you need to shield slam, then use word of glory. Extra threat gives you no real benefit (barring the obvious), so you might as well use HP on word of glory (as the tankadin community at large has been doing).

I'm not sure I understand your stance on the 'old' rotation... you were never forced to build hp to use shield slams. I ran the exact same build (minus 5 talent points) since 4.0.1 release as I am running now. At the time it was a less popular build but the word of glory heals were upwards of 30k with POTI, on a _much_ smaller health pool. So for me nothing has changed in a long time, but if you felt the need to shield slam in past patches then a lot has probably changed for you. As for using a 'terrible rotation', if you know it's bad and you still use it then you have major issues.'

Bottom line is that if it works, it works. Now that we have been given a range of build options it's not up to us to decide the statistical 'best' build for you. If you don't want the rotation to be mundane then you can very easily stop using word of glory every three HP and swap in some shield slams.


tl:dr - semi-agitated 'rant' about WOG topics.
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Re: Holy Power/Rotation issue in raids

Postby Protigy » Wed Dec 15, 2010 1:40 pm

Thark wrote:In the end, I'm just worried that the current state of things seems to lead to a situation where a simple Crusader Strike -> Word of Glory rotation is about the extent of things. I hope things will change as we all become better geared and healer mana is less of an issue, but what about when new content hits again? Will a mindless rotation return? Is this a concern for anyone else?

It is not necessarily a concern I have. Due to the gear we are currently raiding in and being pretty far from block capped, we are taking considerable damage which causes our Vengeance to be consistently higher than normal (>70%+ for the entire fight). That additional 10k+ AP converts to a sick amount of tps combined with the higher Str on our gear.

As healers catch up in gear and we approach the block cap, we will take significantly less damage which should limit our Vengeance from getting as high as you see now. For now, the self-healing is very beneficial especially if your guild is nearing Nefarion after just the first week of the expansion. Once everyone is in full 359s, you will likely see dps on your heels and healers will be able to heal you substantially better. Anything you can do to make healer mana last longer will help during progression content. On farm content, you will be better off pushing the most dps possible for a quicker kill to give your guild more time on a progression boss that week.

We did a 10-man Bastion of Twilight run at the end of the week just to get a look at bosses we didn't do in our 25-man raid. On Halfus Wyrmbreaker, while tanking the boss I pulled 15k dps by the end of the fight, ranking me #60 on World of Logs for Ret Pallies for that fight (WoL ranks Prot as Ret due to Crusader Strike; really wish they'd fix it). Can't link the log right now, but you can look it up via:

"US-Cho'gall" -> "Synthesis" -> "Damage Done" -> "Kills" -> "Halfus Wyrmbreaker" on their site

This is how I know Vengeance is the key factor right now for our tps. Once things balance out, our focus will change to using a more optimal +tps rotation.

TL;DR: Keep utilizing 3 HoPo WoG while Vengeance is rediculously high to help with healer mana. As everyone approaches full 359+, you will shift away from a reliance on WoG.
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Re: Holy Power/Rotation issue in raids

Postby Arkesh » Wed Dec 15, 2010 1:49 pm

Personally I've been loving the flexibility of the new rotation, it's no longer exactly the same from fight to fight. I've been having a lot of fun learning when I can get away with a nice 'dps' rotation with shield slams and when I should be helping out the healers. IMO it's a lot more engaging than the 969. However I did find myself spending most of my holy power wogging people last night on magmaw, which was cool for a change, but I really hope that it's not something I find myself doing all the time. Although you could argue that wog is good for progression when you want to survive and shor is good for farming when you want to show the dps you're not just a punch bag.

I think however when we're learning the new fights I'll be speccing more into a wog spec rather than this generic one I've got atm, just to help the healers out a little more as I certainly don't need the threat and dps/tps doesn't seem too much of an issue yet, hopefully that'll change a little later.
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Re: Holy Power/Rotation issue in raids

Postby Sabindeus » Wed Dec 15, 2010 1:50 pm

I actually did Baradin Hold for the first time recently and found I needed to use ShotR instead of WoG, not to hold aggro, but to beat the enrage timer. (I also had to toggle RF so I wouldn't pull aggro off the other tank when he was tanking)
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Re: Holy Power/Rotation issue in raids

Postby Senador » Wed Dec 15, 2010 1:58 pm

(I also had to toggle RF so I wouldn't pull aggro off the other tank when he was tanking)


I noticed this issue as well, and my offtank had to watch for pulling off of me in the Baradin Hold boss as well due to the boss going from a Vengeance stacked tank to a tank with no Vengeance.
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Re: Holy Power/Rotation issue in raids

Postby Thark » Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:09 pm

I don't think I made my point well. Let me try to rephrase.

I think you could be an effective tank in a raid by just hitting Crusader Strike and then hitting Word of Glory, tossing in an occasional Judgment.

I think that's a little mindless. You've made some good points about this being due to vengeance, and how with gear we'll have less need to worry about our healing and more need to worry about TPS. But, for current progression, and probably for future progression, it seems like this might be the case.

It's not even a 3 holy power Word of Glory that you'd need to use. It's as effective for healing using it at a 3 stack as it is using it 3 times at a 1 stack. Hence, you could just alternate Crusader Strike with Word of Glory for a "rotation", as long as you judged often enough to keep up debuffs and your mana. There's not really much to think about there. You're not really watching for procs, or varying it up. I'm not really a fan of playing a healer, building up Holy Power to use Word of Glory on myself or others as the situation may be, which is what it feels like so far.

I came here to have a discussion with other players who play the same class, to see if anyone was seeing the same thing or shared my concerns.

PS: Halfus gains a damage taken debuff as the adds die, so the tank on him often ends up being one of the top DPSers. At least this was the case for our run.
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Re: Holy Power/Rotation issue in raids

Postby Njall » Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:17 pm

Thark wrote:I don't think I made my point well. Let me try to rephrase.

I think you could be an effective tank in a raid by just hitting Crusader Strike and then hitting Word of Glory, tossing in an occasional Judgment.


I think you would be very sadly mistaken. Perhaps you should try it sometime and see what the results are? My experiences have led me to believe that Cata tanking is far more active an involved that the old (and boring!) 969 rotation ever was.
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Re: Holy Power/Rotation issue in raids

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:19 pm

To state the obvious, quite CLEARLY a one stack of Holy Power WOG heal isn't as effective (or good) as a three stack heal. Just because you CAN do it doesn't make it "as effective".

So your idea that your rotation doesn't matter is basically looking as if you're doing everything half-assed. You're neither putting out "meh" dps by using WoG (which is one argument) nor are you putting out efficient heals on yourself by one 1 HoPo WoG (the other argument). Neither of the approaches in your comment are effective ways of playing.
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Re: Holy Power/Rotation issue in raids

Postby sculder » Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:30 pm

Thark wrote:I think you could be an effective tank in a raid by just hitting Crusader Strike and then hitting Word of Glory, tossing in an occasional Judgment.


The same argument could be made with just about any spells from any class. The fact that you don't enjoy it is a matter of personal preference. The WOG spec is in fact slightly less viable now as it was pre 4.0.3a, so I'ms till confused as to why this is just now bothering you. Most of us choose our specs based on what we need in the context of our raid(s). For some people this will be the same across the board, but others constantly adapt and change things on a fight-by-fight or even gcd-by-gcd basis.
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Re: Holy Power/Rotation issue in raids

Postby theckhd » Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:49 pm

Thark wrote:I think you could be an effective tank in a raid by just hitting Crusader Strike and then hitting Word of Glory, tossing in an occasional Judgment.


I think you've confused "effective" with "horribly half-assed and inefficient." Even though WoG only scales linearly with Holy Power, there's a distinct opportunity cost involved in using 3 GCDs to get X healing rather than one GCD.
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Re: Holy Power/Rotation issue in raids

Postby d503 » Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:02 pm

One thing that some people forget is that you have to be careful with your WoG heals. While overheal is not wasted on yourself because of talents, if you snipe heals from other healers and get your target to a high health level, you're "spending" your healers' mana unnecessarily.

Healers assess the situation and see who needs a heal. If they see a rogue with -30k health and toss a Divine Light at them to top them off for some aoe, but your WoG snipes 22k of that heal, they just "paid" 1300 mana for an 8k heal...horribly inefficient.

I try to use WoG to snipe deaths, and in cases where I know there won't be overheal (targets are less than 50% health).

Otherwise, you're better served just DPS, or tossing WoG shields on yourself if you're topped off.
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Re: Holy Power/Rotation issue in raids

Postby Astronii » Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:39 am

I aint as lucky to be raiding but i found that while gearing up in hcs i could just use seal of insight and WOG for my holy power and threat didnt seem to be an issue. but still this was alot of help to the healer. i also found that the 2nd boss in vortex pinnacle hc can be soloed. i never solod it but i got him to about 50 % before the breath became too much too handle. the self healing capabilities of prot paladins are amazing i think and yeh takes alot of stress of healers.
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Re: Holy Power/Rotation issue in raids

Postby Thark » Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:49 am

Well it seems as if nobody shares my concerns, which is what I was hoping for.

I'm going to go with the assumption that our early raids in the first few days of this expansion were done with horribly undergeared characters. On some of them, I'd have a low health warning on my screen for what felt like 75% of the entire fight. While it's not fun or optimal, when you think every hit you take might be your last, you don't really have the luxury of storing up 3 Holy Power if you think you might be dead beforehand, so it makes more sense to use a lower power spell more frequently. If you're not in danger of dying with the next hit, it certainly makes more sense to store up holy power and free up GCD's.

I wouldn't argue that it's fun or optimal, but that you could get by with such a simple rotation. Perhaps similar to some of the old /castrandom macros - where the output wasn't quite as good, but was often good enough.

It was born out of a 16:30 kill in BWD, where healer mana was a big issue, I was constantly at low health and in danger of dying, and I had to save my Avengers Shield for interrupts. In a situation like that (threat is not an issue, damage taken/mana is) it did start to devolve into CS->WoG type fight. I wouldn't expect it to be anything similar this week, and it wasn't too similar to the other encounters we did last week, but there were situations where mobs were firmly anchored on me, my health was low for an extended period of time, and every small heal mattered.

In a roundabout way, I gather that none of the experiences here at any of the raid/dungeons levels have been like this. People seem to be successful with all kinds of playstyles and rotations. Thanks for sharing your comments.
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Re: Holy Power/Rotation issue in raids

Postby sculder » Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:55 am

Thark wrote:


It's not that no one here uses a WOG build, because I'm sure most of us do. The reasoning behind it is longevity, survivability, and surplus threat. The point of my (and other) responses is to emphasize that a WOG build is not your only option, it's simply a popular one at this stage of content.
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