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Guild Self-Organization

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Guild Self-Organization

Postby Arianne » Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:19 pm

Hey all,

I'm having a disagreement with the other officers. They believe that people should just self-organize the tasks they have to do during a fight. For example, on Heroic LK, they believe that the hunters should be self-organizing who is doing the tranq shots on the SH and who is misdirecting during transitions for each raging spirit. Or that healers should be self-organizing on who they're planning on healing and what cooldowns they're using on the tanks and so forth.

I think that's a pipe dream. I've never heard of a guild that this actually works in. All guilds that I've previously been a member of and all raids I've ever led, I have to assign all of that stuff myself (or if I'm lucky another person will take responsibility for assigning part of it).

So, my question to you is, does your guild self-organize tasks like this? Is this a casual vs hardcore thing? Is it a guild culture thing?
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Re: Guild Self-Organization

Postby Adryl » Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:29 pm

Yes and No. I think the raid leader should make certain decisions but if there are multiple classes, I say let them decide. When I used to run with Ami, the other Holy Pally and I would discuss our beaconing, would would pick up X person is Y situation, among other things. I think the RL should give the basic guidelines but let the players themselves decide on the small things. I feel that some RL may make a decision for a certain player to do something that they may not be comfortable with. Yes throwing them into the bad situations will help them learn, but if you are going for progression or H modes or achievements, let the player decide, not the leader.
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Re: Guild Self-Organization

Postby Holyblaze » Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:50 pm

I just had a talk with some of my officers this morning about this (I am not Guild Leader)very issue, different situation.

I am WAY old school mind you. I am talking 40 man raid days and the like. Was more of a Class self-regulate more than anything though. Here is how the structure would play out in the 40 man guilds that I have been in.

Guild Leader
|
|
Officers
|
|
Class Leader
|
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Everyone Else

Officers were the Raid Leads and mostly...Officers as well. People generaly want to do the right thing, but sometimes fail to bring 100% or thier 'A' Game. With that being the case...there is a need to orginize and focus your 'team' to perform at a certian level. We had a TON of Class Pride back in the day, which I feel has been lost to some degree since more classes can bring the same/similer buff/debuff scheme so there is more of an individuale self worth in today's raid enviroment.

With that said...Class Leads are not needed in my experiance. Officers/Raid Leads now fill that roll and so it sounds like your officers may be a tad burnt out and getting lazy as its turns into a real unpaid job to be in that position anymore.
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Re: Guild Self-Organization

Postby Chicken » Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:10 pm

We tried self-organizing once, and while it kind of worked, what it essentially mostly did was make one person take charge of a class. I say mostly because in cases of a class with an important role that didn't have someone taking charge (Or if that one person wasn't there one night), things kind of fell apart for that group of people. So instead we focused on just having a couple of designated people that handled certain roles. A couple of people that organized healing, a couple of people that organized DPS (including any special roles in either case). Exception are the tanks really, since for the most part the kind of person that chooses to tank is also inclined to taking charge, and of course putting someone in charge of the tanking role feels a bit silly when you often have only 2 tanks. They can sort things out together.

You end up with a simple 'chain of command' there. Raid leader tells us the role leaders what is needed for the fight, role leaders figure out which of the people in those roles are best suited to the tasks the raid lead needs.

Raids really aren't big enough (and classes aren't different enough) to really require someone for each class, but having a few knowledgeable people willing to sort things out for each role saves you a lot of work as raid leader while keeping things organized; they'll also have an easier time remembering who did what recently and who likes doing or is good at doing what as they're keeping track of a smaller group of people.

That's assuming for 25-man raiding. 10-mans are a different matter due to again being a size smaller; I'd still say having a few set people in charge is preferable though. Organizing things might not be fun for most people, but it'll at least ensure you don't run into a case of people mutually thinking the other guy was going to do it.
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Re: Guild Self-Organization

Postby Digren » Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:44 pm

Arianne wrote:So, my question to you is, does your guild self-organize tasks like this? Is this a casual vs hardcore thing? Is it a guild culture thing?

I think it's more a culture thing than a hard/casual thing. We're quite casual but we've always self-organized, or at least let each class or role members work out their own jobs in whatever way they prefer.
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Re: Guild Self-Organization

Postby Meloree » Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:26 pm

Arianne wrote:So, my question to you is, does your guild self-organize tasks like this? Is this a casual vs hardcore thing? Is it a guild culture thing?


We certainly self-organize to some degree. I'd rather not micromanage anything I don't have to. Tranqs at LK? Definitely self-organized by hunters. Positioning is normally self-organized by group. Healing is mostly self-organized, it's only micromanaged when required. Decursing? Completely self-organized. About the only thing that gets organized is whether or not DPS has to help.

On the other hand, add dps at, say, Halion, was completely micromanaged in progression. We decided exactly who was AoEing, who was hitting large elementals, etc, to maximize total useful DPS output. Basically we let the really high AoE be AoE, the DoT classes got to multi-dot large elementals and halion, and the single-target types got to stick on Halion or Large adds as needed. At Saurfang, similarily, add dps was micromanaged in progression.
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Re: Guild Self-Organization

Postby Darielle » Sat Nov 06, 2010 12:48 am

Arianne wrote:Hey all,

I'm having a disagreement with the other officers. They believe that people should just self-organize the tasks they have to do during a fight. For example, on Heroic LK, they believe that the hunters should be self-organizing who is doing the tranq shots on the SH and who is misdirecting during transitions for each raging spirit. Or that healers should be self-organizing on who they're planning on healing and what cooldowns they're using on the tanks and so forth.

I think that's a pipe dream. I've never heard of a guild that this actually works in. All guilds that I've previously been a member of and all raids I've ever led, I have to assign all of that stuff myself (or if I'm lucky another person will take responsibility for assigning part of it).

So, my question to you is, does your guild self-organize tasks like this? Is this a casual vs hardcore thing? Is it a guild culture thing?


That sort of thing depends on how the raid performs. We definitely self-organise to a large extent, and things like who handles Tranqs or who handles what are something the raid leader doesn't touch. Healers sort themselves out in healer chat, Paladins sort out things in Paladin chat, Locks do their thing in Lock chat, and I'm pretty sure all the classes/roles have their channels that everyone is in and talks about this sort of stuff.

The raid leader only needs to step in and do things manually if
1) People are doing it wrong and messing it up.
2) It's a major part of the fight mechanic. Even there, depends on the mechanic - sometimes he just asks people to announce their self-organised assignments to everyone so everyone is clear. It's how we handled Valk stuns for example - talked among each other in backend channels and made a macro to announce stuns and backups to everyone.
Where he does assign is on things like say, Halion and who's dps'ing what, who's in which realm, etc. or which classes should be dps'ing iceblocks in P3 or which healers go into Valithria portals type stuff.

I imagine it's a culture thing. Frankly, I'd expect people to be intelligent and smart enough to sort themselves out on little things like that.
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Re: Guild Self-Organization

Postby knaughty » Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:07 am

Very similar to Meloree, other than role-leader-officers have typically done a lot of the heavy lifting. I was tank officer, so I worked out which tanks were doing what. The healing officer worked out healing invites at raid start, any swaps, and what healers are doing what. Ditto ranged & melee. Hunters were kind of a special case, we had a psuedo-officer hunter (staggeringly good long-term veteran) who managed the hunters with minimal intervention.

Raid-leader picks role balance for the raid as a whole: EH: 2 tanks, 6 healers, heavy on melee - role officers then sort the details.

We've typically tried to run two healing officers and 3-4 DPS officers to:
  1. Allow officers nights off or cover their absences.
  2. Spread the workload
  3. Have backups for when they burn out / have kids / graduate from university
Occasional complete micro-management by raid leader happens - Saurfang DPS targets, Valkyr stunners, Halion DPS target and zone for P3, but it's very much the exception rather than the rule.

This is an incredibly long-standing setup in Ajantis, and has allowed the guild to be stable over long time-frames despite significant churn. We're on our 5th different person as GM since I joined in Tier-6, in most cases the GM hasn't been the primary raid-leader (4th one was an exception). All ex-GMs bar one are still members & officers, they just can't currently do the work required to be GM (well, #4 is a psuedo-officer, he's running the PvP team in Cata, otherwise retired).

Thinking about it, the only officer role that was stable from Tier-6 through to LK-hard-mode kill was tanking officer (yours truly) - every other role changed multiple times.
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Re: Guild Self-Organization

Postby knaughty » Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:12 am

Meloree wrote:Basically we let the really high AoE be AoE, the DoT classes got to multi-dot large elementals and halion, and the single-target types got to stick on Halion or Large adds as needed. At Saurfang, similarily, add dps was micromanaged in progression.

We do this - but we also expect people to notify the raid-leader if they think they're on the wrong target and explain why. EG: The warlocks will be self-organising who's playing which spec. If the raid-leader says "Barney, we're light melee for Halion-hard and we need more DPS downstairs, stay in shadow-realm in P3" then Barney is expected to pipe up and say "I'm destro tonight, Jim-Vov is affliction, send him".

So yeah, even when we micro-manage, you're expected to engage your damn brain.
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Re: Guild Self-Organization

Postby Faia » Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:46 pm

I personally think its not as simple as simply saying self-organization yes or no. It comes down to how your guild operates and the the interactions/personalities of members. To give an example, some people are great raid leaders but bad guild masters while others are the opposite and then there are people who are good at both. There is huge variance in the dynamics of how guilds are run.

From my own personal experience I would say guild masters get the final say in any raid in how things are done and everyone else should follow them. Guild members however must make sure to voice any concerns or issues they have and discuss it after the raid.

Raid leaders may lead a raid and organise everything to how they view it should be done (if its delegating the organisation to specific officers or assigning it himself or just letting people self organise) but ultimately they answer to the guild master imo. (Exception ofcourse is when the guildmaster is raidleading)

Now that my views on that has been cleared up, if something like self-organisation within a raid setting comes into play I would try and be open minded and weigh up the the pros and cons of doing so (e.g. is your guild capable of self organising effectively, do your raiders talk enough between each other to be able to do it.)

If you are struggling on things when doing new content then I would typically say just discuss and assign people to individual tasks as it makes it very clear but still be open to maybe being more relaxed and letting people self-organise the next raid and see how it works for you.

--You said your having a disagreement with the other officers regarding this issue I would say just discuss why they feel so strongly that having people self organise is the best method. Normally people don't disagree or argue over something without a logical reason so try to understand why they are bringing it up and come to an amicable conclusion everyone can live with. If neither side is willing to budge let the GM have the final say. Sometimes the guild master has to make decisions which they believe is in the best interests of the guild which people don't like.
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Re: Guild Self-Organization

Postby Dantriges » Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:58 pm

I think it´s beter that sel organization happens if people are capable of that. Otherwise they just wait for orders. But you have to make clear that this is expected, not that they wait for orders.
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Re: Guild Self-Organization

Postby Buttercupcake » Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:05 am

I think there's always going to be some element of self organisation mixed in with specific instructions, rarely do you get an extreme of one or the other. I was running two concurrent raids with similar progression, but one was casual and the other more hardcore. There was more micromanagement in the more hardcore raid but there was also a lot of self organisation among classes and roles. Aside from dps roles and general instructions, healing and tanking instructions would be mostly the areas where it differed somewhat. As healing lead I tend to micromanage healing assignments, as a tank (but not an officer) in my other raid we simply decided what we'd do among ourselves.
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Re: Guild Self-Organization

Postby Amirya » Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:26 pm

So I'm late to the game and all, but I'd say it would vary depending on your culture.

I've done raid leading. I've also rotated raid leading to my senior officers - but somehow, I still wind up as raid assistant :lol:

My personal preference is to trust that my raid isn't comprised of screw ups and retards. Therefore, I trust my healers to figure out who is doing what, and if it's a new healer, I might suggest a role - but that also requires my healer to be up front about their experience. I also trust my dps to figure out who is doing what, and if it's a new dps, I might suggest a role - but again, requires the dps to be up front about their experience. Bet you know what I'm going to say about tanks, right? :D

I don't like to micro manage, because it doesn't give me a chance to see my raid members at their best - and their worst. And if I have to start micromanaging, my raid typically knows it's because someone (or someones) is a screw up, a retard, or extremely inexperienced. I have no issue with the latter. The former two I have no patience for ("My pet has growl on because it can take the hits and give the healers a break from healing tanks!" is one gem I heard once).
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Re: Guild Self-Organization

Postby Dantriges » Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:51 pm

Amirya wrote:"My pet has growl on because it can take the hits and give the healers a break from healing tanks!" is one gem I heard once.


That´s a good one. Did he realize that his pet can´t take the hts after it died a few times and taunting pets only annoy the tank?
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Re: Guild Self-Organization

Postby Awyndel » Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:59 am

In our guild, the tactical advisors prepare the tactics. The raid leader makes sure the role leaders know what needs to be asigned. Role leaders coordinate this in whispers or private channels with their teams. If ppl have ideas themselves they can always ask.

This sounds lot better in design then it works in reality :D . We do try.
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