I want my Legendary tanking items!

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Re: I want my Legendary tanking items!

Postby d503 » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:36 pm

bldavis wrote:i think the biggest thing that im calling bs about the small market on is the warglaives

they are restricted to just rogues and warriors

iirc they are 1hd swords.... ie hunter usable, yet they are restricted!
and they are saying 4 tank classes is more restrictive then 2 specific classes

oh and heres the links
Warglaive
Warglaive

edit: fixt link


Hi, as I've said before, the theory of how Legendaries are "done" has definitely changed from Vanilla > BC > WotLK. There's been a significant shift in paradigm on the dev team since the end of BC and WotLK. This shift has been toward providing stuff like this to the larger audience possible...

I don't think we should be applying a BC-model of Legendary item creation to a Cata world, where the majority of devs are from the Wrath era.

Just my 2c.
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Re: I want my Legendary tanking items!

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:47 pm

d503 wrote:
bldavis wrote:i think the biggest thing that im calling bs about the small market on is the warglaives

they are restricted to just rogues and warriors

iirc they are 1hd swords.... ie hunter usable, yet they are restricted!
and they are saying 4 tank classes is more restrictive then 2 specific classes

oh and heres the links
Warglaive
Warglaive

edit: fixt link


Hi, as I've said before, the theory of how Legendaries are "done" has definitely changed from Vanilla > BC > WotLK. There's been a significant shift in paradigm on the dev team since the end of BC and WotLK. This shift has been toward providing stuff like this to the larger audience possible...

I don't think we should be applying a BC-model of Legendary item creation to a Cata world, where the majority of devs are from the Wrath era.

Just my 2c.

But what difference does it make? It's not like making a tanking legendary makes it impossible to make a legendary for a different role. They could make 2 in a tier or 20. It's not like they have to stick to any model, as you suggest they have changed (though honestly it's not all that different). None if these numbers or "difficult to implement" issues stand up to any sort of reasonable scrutiny. There are lots of different ways they could implement a tanking weapon in an equitable manner. It's simply a matter of desire.

It seems to me that the most illogical thing is singling out a particular role and excluding it, for whatever reason, but particularly for any of the reasons put forward so far.
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Re: I want my Legendary tanking items!

Postby d503 » Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:48 pm

Fridmarr wrote:But what difference does it make? It's not like making a tanking legendary makes it impossible to make a legendary for a different role. They could make 2 in a tier or 20. It's not like they have to stick to any model, as you suggest they have changed (though honestly it's not all that different). None if these numbers or "difficult to implement" issues stand up to any sort of reasonable scrutiny. There are lots of different ways they could implement a tanking weapon in an equitable manner. It's simply a matter of desire.

It seems to me that the most illogical thing is singling out a particular role and excluding it, for whatever reason, but particularly for any of the reasons put forward so far.


Doesn't making it Dual, Triple and Quadruple purpose kind of reduce the unique aspects of a Legendary weapon?
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Re: I want my Legendary tanking items!

Postby valura » Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:34 am

After following the discussion, I think I have an idea that might make everybody happy : Build Your Own Artifiact

1. Have the endboss of first raid drop a quest item ( 1 on 10m, 2-3 on 25m ), which can be rolled for as normal.
2. Take the quest from the item and go see your Class Trainer
3. Take the follow-up.
4. Gather 500 items from raid bosses ( similar to the shards of Val’anyr and Frostmourne ), at a rate of 1-2 per 10m boss, 2-3 per 10mHC boss, 3-4 per 25m boss and 4-5 per 25HC boss. ( the items are not stacked together, and are subject to Master Looter )
5. Each item will improve one stat at a fixed rate per stat; 1 item equals
- 10 ARMOR, or
- 3 STR/AGI, or
- 3 INT/SPI, or
- 4 STAM, or
- 2 DODGE/PARRY, or
- 2 HIT/CRIT/HASTE, or
- 3 MASTERY
6. Force players to invest in at least 3 stats to be inmproved.
7. Allow for a one-time redistribution of statpoints before the weapon is finalized
8. Once 500 items have been obtained, and used to improve the item, give players the option to choose what template they would like to use; 1H sword, 1H axe, 1H mace, 2H sword, 2H axe, 2H mace, dagger, fist weapon, staff, polearm, bow, or gun. ( I've excluded thrown, as I cannot imagine anyone going for that! )
It would also be very handy if Blizzard would create a unique template for each of the above, so that the item can easily be identified as an Artifact.
9. Let the players be happy with their personalized Artifact weapon.

This is a rudimentary version, and I'm sure there's lot to improve, but I reckon this idea would make a lot of people happy.
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Re: I want my Legendary tanking items!

Postby mazater » Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:40 am

Just to point out the obvious, since there's a lot of "Can't do 'cause all tanks can't use" arguements around;

A trinket would be splendid for all (tanking) classes.

(Although one could easily make a trinket suitable for all 10 classes and 30 specs, via mastery and a "highest stat chosen" proc.)


Trinket without stamina, but instead with some other passive stat, like mastery - and a silly, yet handy proc (Or an use ability, but a proc would be better, imo) would do the trick.

The proc could make the Legendary item Legendary, yet not so overpowered that you'd never even think about using the other tanks as MTs.

Trinkets do, after all, tend to have a lot of procs or use abilities.

Something Thunderfurry-esque, just not so blatantly OP in AoE situations.
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Re: I want my Legendary tanking items!

Postby Shamora » Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:06 am

Fridmarr wrote:I have no problem with the weapons themselves, their implementation is the problem. I mean hell you just called one of these Legendary items...irrelevant.

A friend and I were talking the other day about legendary items and came to a similar conclusion that the current implementation makes legendary items rather lack luster in the scheme of things. As it stands the biggest use of LIs is to stand around town, looking pretty and getting some ohs and ahs. Or they are used to great effect in PvP. A significant reward from PvE should have its biggest use in PvE.

The biggest problem with LIs is that they tend to come at the end of a tier and do nothing but make the content you just beat, easier to beat the next time around. The big exceptions are Thunderfury, Sulfuras, and Val'anyr. They appeared at the beginning or mid-beginning and could be used for a while. Shadowmourne had a small use in helping clear heroic ICC and to very few guilds the Warglaives were a help in Sunwell. Atiesh and Thori'dal did come at very end and ended up nothing more then status symbols. I even remember someone say that they had planned to use Thori'dal to level or farm in WotLK, not because it did a ton of damage or looked cool, but because it saved them money by not using arrows. A legendary demoted to the status of a coupon for free arrows.

The other issue, and the cause of the strife in this thread, is that only a few class/specs get a LI per two year expansion. Vanilla probably has the biggest spread with a tank weapon, a 2H melee weapon and a caster weapon. BC was limited to Rogues/Fury Warriors and Hunters/classes with ranged weapons. WotLK was a bit better covering healers and another 2H melee weapon.

My preferred solution to this issue would be to give every class/spec access to a LI near the beginning of an expansion. This would be a reward from a raid quest chain that can only be completed in heroic mode and would include difficult heroic achievements or quests. At the end the person gets to choose his LI similar to how the battered hilt works. Then every tier of content there is another heroic raid quest chain that upgrades the LIs stats and appearance to help differentiate between a T1 LI and a T4 LI. Similar to how the BoP BS weapons changed in appearance in BC.

By requiring difficult heroics it helps to keep it somewhat rare. I believe that every spec should have access to a legendary, not that everyone should simply have a legendary. It is also a very visible reward for the heroic raiders to help them stand out from the rest of the crowd. By putting it at the beginning it allows the weapon to be useful for the majority of a tier. It also gives guilds an incentive to return to older content without preventing them from doing current content.

As part of the quest I would have some sort of shard drop. I would have one drop in 10 mans and three drop in 25 mans. Each boss would drop a different shard and each shard is unique. The shards are turned into someone and it gives a small increase in rep for some legendary item faction. Once you max that tier of rep you get the heroic quests. The reason for making them unique is that in 25 mans it forces you to give it to three different people. I want more people to be able to complete it in 25 man, not one person completing it three times faster. Also you start at neutral with this legendary faction and T1 shards only get you to friendly, T2 to Honored, etc. It would take roughly the same amount of shards to get through each level. I am torn between making it required to finish the previous level before you can turn in the next level of shards or allowing people to farm the current content and go from neutral to whatever the current max is. Depends how much you want to entice guilds to run older content. Either way they would still have to go back and do the heroic quests in order.

There are a few issues I can see people bringing up with this setup. One is what happens to weapon drops in raids. Weapons can still drop and be useful as there will still be people without a legendary or still working on it, people that dual wield will still need a second weapon, hunters still need melee weapons and alts and casuals are less likely to have a legendary. Another is what happens if a person switches specs. My solution would be to allow them to change it for a fee similar to rep rings. As for the lore behind these weapons, Blizzard can pretty much write whatever lore they want if they really want to fit something in.

The biggest issue is this would most likely cause a lot of guild drama. It is a lot easier, and likely to piss less people off, to choose between a handful of healers or melee as to who is most worthy of getting a legendary then it is to choose between an entire raid and across different roles. I have no real solution to this other then there is always going to be guild drama of some sort and it is up to each guild how best to distribute these.

I doubt Blizzard will ever implement this, but I can dream can't I?



tl;dr - The current system is flawed. Every class/spec should be able to get a Legendary without it becoming too common and have it be useful for the majority of the expansion.
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Re: I want my Legendary tanking items!

Postby Shoju » Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:46 am

mazater wrote:Just to point out the obvious, since there's a lot of "Can't do 'cause all tanks can't use" arguements around;

A trinket would be splendid for all (tanking) classes.

(Although one could easily make a trinket suitable for all 10 classes and 30 specs, via mastery and a "highest stat chosen" proc.)


Trinket without stamina, but instead with some other passive stat, like mastery - and a silly, yet handy proc (Or an use ability, but a proc would be better, imo) would do the trick.

The proc could make the Legendary item Legendary, yet not so overpowered that you'd never even think about using the other tanks as MTs.

Trinkets do, after all, tend to have a lot of procs or use abilities.

Something Thunderfurry-esque, just not so blatantly OP in AoE situations.



Like I said in my previous post. They want Legendaries to BE SEEN This means, no trinket, ring, neck, or relic slot. Yes, I know they made a legendary neck, and it dropped for 1 or 2 guilds in the WORLD before it was removed from the game.

I like the idea of build your own artifact. Legendaries are cool. I like them. I don't know if I would do "artifact" though. I would on the other hand, LOVE to see more class quests, so something like that would be pretty cool.

If I were going to implement a tanking legendary, I would do it like this.

I'm going to assume that Cataclysm is going to have 4 tiers of raiding. Vanilla had ~4 (AQ wasn't counted as a tier), TBC had ~4 (You had SWP), and WotLK had 4 distinct.

So, At the end of what will be Tier 12 content, I would allow drop an item from the last boss. Since we see the Firelands is slated for that, we will assume for simplicities sake that the item drops from Rags. We will call this item, the Reclaimed eye of sulfuras, Since they like that word "reclaimed" in Cata.

The reclaimed eye will be a legendary item, and it will start a quest. The quest will send you to Blackrock Mountain, where you meet with an NPC on the side of the mountain or some other out of the way spot. He tells you blah blah blah I have been watching blah blah blah and now its time to strike blah blah blah you defeated my captor blah blah blah now I will help you defeat the true horror of the world blah blah blah.

He sends you on a quest that is very specific for your class. You will have to run the tier 12 heroics for some items. You will have to run both Tier 12, and possibly even a Tier 11 raids for mats or to get some more blah blah blah from an NPC. I'm thinking 1 item that is found in the room of the last T11 boss or something, and then shadowfrostburninating shards from t12.

When you have all the blah blah blah out of the way, and have collected the jeweled toenails of dragons, and match tips from fire guys in the firelands, you come back, and he says Sweet. Take this all to your trainer.

You trainer blah blah blahs his way through something, and says that you need one more item to complete it. This item has to be super awesome, and you go get it, probably in some bizarre portion of the world, not instanced. You will need a raid of at least 10, as you attune you new whichajigger and the reclaimed eye of suluras, and some toenails of dragons, and match tips. The quest is awesome, people are happy, you get a legendary.

This legendary is like the person who mentioned the artifact said: unique to the person. It could be a weapon for DPS / healers / bear and dk tanks. It could be a shield for paladins. I'm thinking the whole line is as involved as SSC/BT attunements, lots of steps, but not incredibly over the top difficult to do. It is more of a time investment, something that is done by someone who is dedicated.

I think that if it were a legendary like this, it would go to the person who does the most for the raiding body. For my guild, that could be a DPS. For Flex and OotG, it could be a tank item. For Meloree's guild it could be a healer weapon. For Invis, it could be a shield that looks like his character half naked.

The point would be that it is a legendary that the guild truly gets to decide who does the most for the guild. For simplicities sake, you could make it

1h'd mace
2h'd mace
Shield
Gun

as the options, and like I said before work it so that the least amount of options works.

The more I think about it, the more I think that this is the type of system that would need to be implemented to truly remove the debate about a legendary. yes, it leads to possibly 4 legendary items from the same thing. But, it would definitely work out to being very noticeable.
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Re: I want my Legendary tanking items!

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:26 am

d503 wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:But what difference does it make? It's not like making a tanking legendary makes it impossible to make a legendary for a different role. They could make 2 in a tier or 20. It's not like they have to stick to any model, as you suggest they have changed (though honestly it's not all that different). None if these numbers or "difficult to implement" issues stand up to any sort of reasonable scrutiny. There are lots of different ways they could implement a tanking weapon in an equitable manner. It's simply a matter of desire.

It seems to me that the most illogical thing is singling out a particular role and excluding it, for whatever reason, but particularly for any of the reasons put forward so far.


Doesn't making it Dual, Triple and Quadruple purpose kind of reduce the unique aspects of a Legendary weapon?

Not at all. Why would it have to?
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Re: I want my Legendary tanking items!

Postby Palisade » Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:21 am

Shoju wrote:
Like I said in my previous post. They want Legendaries to BE SEEN This means, no trinket, ring, neck, or relic slot. Yes, I know they made a legendary neck, and it dropped for 1 or 2 guilds in the WORLD before it was removed from the game.

I like the idea of build your own artifact. Legendaries are cool. I like them. I don't know if I would do "artifact" though. I would on the other hand, LOVE to see more class quests, so something like that would be pretty cool.

If I were going to implement a tanking legendary, I would do it like this.

I'm going to assume that Cataclysm is going to have 4 tiers of raiding. Vanilla had ~4 (AQ wasn't counted as a tier), TBC had ~4 (You had SWP), and WotLK had 4 distinct.

So, At the end of what will be Tier 12 content, I would allow drop an item from the last boss. Since we see the Firelands is slated for that, we will assume for simplicities sake that the item drops from Rags. We will call this item, the Reclaimed eye of sulfuras, Since they like that word "reclaimed" in Cata.

The reclaimed eye will be a legendary item, and it will start a quest. The quest will send you to Blackrock Mountain, where you meet with an NPC on the side of the mountain or some other out of the way spot. He tells you blah blah blah I have been watching blah blah blah and now its time to strike blah blah blah you defeated my captor blah blah blah now I will help you defeat the true horror of the world blah blah blah.

He sends you on a quest that is very specific for your class. You will have to run the tier 12 heroics for some items. You will have to run both Tier 12, and possibly even a Tier 11 raids for mats or to get some more blah blah blah from an NPC. I'm thinking 1 item that is found in the room of the last T11 boss or something, and then shadowfrostburninating shards from t12.

When you have all the blah blah blah out of the way, and have collected the jeweled toenails of dragons, and match tips from fire guys in the firelands, you come back, and he says Sweet. Take this all to your trainer.

You trainer blah blah blahs his way through something, and says that you need one more item to complete it. This item has to be super awesome, and you go get it, probably in some bizarre portion of the world, not instanced. You will need a raid of at least 10, as you attune you new whichajigger and the reclaimed eye of suluras, and some toenails of dragons, and match tips. The quest is awesome, people are happy, you get a legendary.

This legendary is like the person who mentioned the artifact said: unique to the person. It could be a weapon for DPS / healers / bear and dk tanks. It could be a shield for paladins. I'm thinking the whole line is as involved as SSC/BT attunements, lots of steps, but not incredibly over the top difficult to do. It is more of a time investment, something that is done by someone who is dedicated.

I think that if it were a legendary like this, it would go to the person who does the most for the raiding body. For my guild, that could be a DPS. For Flex and OotG, it could be a tank item. For Meloree's guild it could be a healer weapon. For Invis, it could be a shield that looks like his character half naked.

The point would be that it is a legendary that the guild truly gets to decide who does the most for the guild. For simplicities sake, you could make it

1h'd mace
2h'd mace
Shield
Gun

as the options, and like I said before work it so that the least amount of options works.

The more I think about it, the more I think that this is the type of system that would need to be implemented to truly remove the debate about a legendary. yes, it leads to possibly 4 legendary items from the same thing. But, it would definitely work out to being very noticeable.



Now that sounds cool to me. I actually enjoyed the SSC/BT attunement chains. Much like the Paladin Charger quest line, and the Lock mount quest line. Class quests are awesome, they add distinction and lore to the game.
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Re: I want my Legendary tanking items!

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:34 am

I actually really just miss the old days where the legendary item would just DROP and you would have to assign it on the spot instead of making these shard/soul/etc. chain of building up a thing so it feels like you're making progress.
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Re: I want my Legendary tanking items!

Postby Chunes » Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:51 am

Sabindeus wrote:I actually really just miss the old days where the legendary item would just DROP and you would have to assign it on the spot instead of making these shard/soul/etc. chain of building up a thing so it feels like you're making progress.


I don't.

Fuck random loot.
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Re: I want my Legendary tanking items!

Postby Discus » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:13 am

>Fuck random loot.

I know how it upsets the balance theorists and hardcore raiders, but as a casual player I love random loot... that tiny chance that looting some trash might yield a really useful epic. I miss random (useful) epic drops from TBC, I know they still drop in WoTLK but they became irrelevant i200s. Although random legendaries might be taking it a bit far.

Interesting insight into the psychology of tanks on this thread - we are pure masochists - hit me hard but please don't reward me, the pain is enough of a reward in itself.
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Re: I want my Legendary tanking items!

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:29 am

:x
Chunes wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:I actually really just miss the old days where the legendary item would just DROP and you would have to assign it on the spot instead of making these shard/soul/etc. chain of building up a thing so it feels like you're making progress.


I don't.

Fuck random loot.


it's not any less random now, it's just more agonizingly drawn out.
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Re: I want my Legendary tanking items!

Postby Palisade » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:53 am

Discus wrote:Interesting insight into the psychology of tanks on this thread - we are pure masochists - hit me hard but please don't reward me, the pain is enough of a reward in itself.


Any serious tank has to be at least some what masochistic. The amount of frustration and agonizing stress involved in serious raid tanking is ludicrous.
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Re: I want my Legendary tanking items!

Postby Malthrax » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:04 am

Palisade wrote:
Discus wrote:Interesting insight into the psychology of tanks on this thread - we are pure masochists - hit me hard but please don't reward me, the pain is enough of a reward in itself.


Any serious tank has to be at least some what masochistic. The amount of frustration and agonizing stress involved in serious raid tanking is ludicrous.


Being both a tank and a raid leader is more socially acceptable than openly admitting you wear the gimp mask.
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