After 4.0.1--- Do you still like your Pally?

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After 4.0.1--- Do you still like your Pally?

Postby Autofollow » Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:05 am

I haven't seen a thread anywhere in here specifically devoted to this so I figure I'll start this one. Do you like your "New" Tankadin? Hate it? Playing another class tank as a result, or switching completely to DPS or Heals? I thought this might be a good place to consolidate what I've been sort of putting together from what I've read in several different threads.

Anyway, I'll start with my thoughts:

Reading all of the class changes leading up to 4.0.1 I was definitely feeling the "The Sky is Falling" view on my Prot Pally. All I could think was why would Blizzard rape us so much of our AoE threat generation AND make us super squishy at the same time.

Within a few days and several 5 man runs and a few raids I've decided that I really enjoy my new Pally. I feel like I actually have to play the class now instead of using a ton of built in mechanics that "just work" to keep aggro and threat. If that means DPS will have to relearn how to watch threat levels or wait to fully unload on enemies I'm OK with that too. I don't use a set rotation, or macro any abilities to work in conjunction with each other because I like the feeling of using abilities when I feel they should be used instead of when my macro is set up to use them.

The few times that I've died I know I could have avoided it by actually using AD instead of just expecting it to go off :oops:

All in all I like the changes and am happy with my "new" Pally.
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Re: After 4.0.1--- Do you still like your Pally?

Postby Kiorken » Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:19 am

Actually, yes, I enjoy my Paladin.

Before, it seemed so ridgid. Before, I sometimes felt that the tanking rotation was automatic, very static, and I felt that I was just a body available for others to enjoy themselves. Now, I have an active role, and the playing field has been leveled for the most part. It gives you a chance to weed out people that don't know what they are doing.

Honestly, at first, I was actually afraid to try tanking again. I have so much fun on Discipline now, (partly because it's a quasi-heal/DPS spec now) that I almost decided to just stick with that, and not try anything new. Now, after getting used to the new rotation, new talents, AD being a CD, and what I call "AOE herding"; I am pleased. I like reading the topics on MT again, even though I don't post often.

It's a good, refreshing change. At least to me, and you can take that with a grain of salt, obviously.

Playing very casually....for now.
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Re: After 4.0.1--- Do you still like your Pally?

Postby Nikachelle » Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:21 am

I'm waiting until I'm 85 to make an accurate assessment about this.

We don't have all our talents, it's too early to judge.

Some changes I may not like were kind of expected (Ardent Defender being completely passive was way too insane, despite being really really nice).

I'm "okay" with the changes thus far. We'll see how I feel at 85.
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Re: After 4.0.1--- Do you still like your Pally?

Postby Korola » Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:29 am

It feels more interactive with my characters. I prefer making choices to smashing buttons. I like priorities over rotations.
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Re: After 4.0.1--- Do you still like your Pally?

Postby Shoju » Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:50 am

Simple Answer: No.

Long Answer:

I main Changed. I guess what really sealed the deal, is that I can do it, I just don't like it. The changes aren't hard. But, it just isn't interesting for me, the gameplay isn't better, and the design goals got buried.

1.)Blizzard said that they wanted classes to not be GCD locked.

Well.... If a prot paladin gets 0 procs, their rotation is GCD capped with almost no choices if the rotation is done properly. Very Rarely will you have multiple abilities off CD at the same time unless GC Procs. Then there is Crusader Strike/Hammer EVERY OTHER GCD. they replaced 969 (which was IMO, a very elegant tanking solution that allowed paladin tanks to be more raid aware), with LSL (Long Short Long). The problem is, there is only one "Short" Cooldown useable at a time..

This goal pretty much fell by the wayside for everyone and fast. The problem is, having gaps in the rotation isn't a bad thing, when threat isn't an issue. If threat weren't such a fight to get / hold / and keep with a gapped rotation, the QQ around it would have been far less.

2.) They wanted us to use differing abilities in our rotation based on whether or not you are single target or AoE.

Um... Hammer I guess. I was able to fit and use everything else in my rotation, and never hurt for mana. Guess what? If you have 2pc T10, You can replace CS with Hammer of the Righteous because it hits harder due to the 2pc. now, this will be changed once you hit 85, and don't have that bonus, so I'm willing to overlook that.

The difference between Single Target and AoE at 85 will be two things.

1.) Your Short Cooldown is Hammer of the Righteous instead of crusader strike. Same Cooldown, Still gives one holy power.
2.) You Shield of the Righteous hits will be replaced with Inquisition.
3.) You will time when you use Consecration instead of dropping it during the course of a fight because everything else is on CD, and it is there and ready.

Other than that, there is no change. Right now, you don't even have to change seals to righteousness. Why? Because Ret is based around keeping Inquisition up full time, and they get Mastery Bonuses to their Holy damage as well. So, With Ret getting massive boosts to seal damage, Protection's Seal damage is inconsiquential. I could tank with Seal of Insight just fine on live. I actually did once, with a couple of good guildie dpsers along for the ride. There was no discernible change in tank threat.

Pre4.0 There was actually a tank spec that accomplished this. It required a glyph, but was far and away the most differing rotations between single target and AoE: Frost DK Tanks.

Single Target spells used.
IT - PS - BS - OB - FS - HB (on Proc)
Normally RS was avoided because unless you were using tank weapons FS was more Threat per RP than RS

AoE Spells Used.
DnD - HB(glyphed) - BB - OB - FS

Sure, you could AoE with just adding DnD+Pestilence to your Single Target rotation, but this priority system proved to be higher TPS, and you were never waiting on anything.

Why didn't they move all tanks to something like this? Sure, there is Overlap with OB and FS, but that is two overlapping skills instead of 2 changed skills. It was a clear delineation between the two types of tanking.

*Take the above notions of "Rotation" with a frost tank lightly. It is a priority system and a rotation. Procs were a large part of Frost tanking.

3.) They wanted Paladins to be more complex, less passive, and have decisions to make.

They sort of got this right. I guess. Things are more compelx, but we aren't better for it. There is a more "in depth" rotation, but it isn't any harder to get programmed into your brain and just do. There is a proc to watch for, with the built in power auras, it is hard to miss. There is less AoE threat because of Consecration. I tanked H:DTK the other day, and didn't bother consecrating once. it wasn't needed.

Holy Power was their idea to make it better, but alas, it isn't. IMO, it is the same type of build up to finisher that a rogue has. This isn't more interesting game play. Like I have said 100 times on a ton of different boards, and beta feedback posts:

In My Opinion: Holy Power does not improve game play. It is an added layer of complexity for complexities sake.

There are a few more decisions that you have to make, but the gameplay isn't better for it. Whirly symbol around Avenger's shield = Replace whatever you were doing unless it is a 3 holy power charged Shield of the Righteous.

4.) They wanted a larger delta between "great" "good" and "bad" Paladins.

The idea that the quality/skill of a tank lies somewhere in the skill usage for threat is a horridly flawed idea that blizzard is trying to pin paladin complexity to. This is what we measure great dps by. You work your rotation, and you get big dumb numbers. Tanks generate threat, hold the mobs, make sure the rest of the group isn't pulling aggro, keep themselves alive, and mitigate damage. Great tanks know all of their abilities and save the day with that one ability that you don't use that often, and use it at just the right time. This should be the hallmark of a good tank.

I never looked at tanking as a focus on the "offensive" numbers. Sure, I like showing up a DPSer just as much as the next tank from time to time, but I always looked at a tanks job as (these aren't in an order):

a) Keep threat
b) Make your healers as bored as possible through good use of avoidance/Mitigation/Cooldowns
c) Positioning / don't cleave your raid

While other classes have new choices and new ideas, Paladins got a rehashed rotation, are still cooldown locked, still have to manage multiple resources, and are merely complex to give the illusion of skill. The delta between the great and the bad is not going to be measured in threat. The difference will be measured in the not oft used skills that paladins tanks bring to the table, and their implementation of them.

I'm going to miss playing Sunetra. I got my first raid boss kill with her (Romulo and Juliane in a kara pug), She was my first character with Epic Flight. I ran up 30+ exalted reps, 70+ mounts, tons of engineering gizmos and smelting recipes. Every cooking recipe in game now (I finally got Dirge's), and I feel like I'm starting over.
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Re: After 4.0.1--- Do you still like your Pally?

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:11 am

Yes and no.

It's still fun. But having every ability as part of our rotation now means nothing is available (off CD) when something unexpected happens.

Like, on trash someone accidentally melts the world and pulls an extra pack. In the past I could AS a few adds, HW some others to keep them on me.

Now AS and HW are part of our rotation, so they're on CD when shit happens, and I'm unable to pick them up for another 10 seconds, while the adds go eat a few faces.

Granted this is trash, and who cares about trash amirite?

My biggest complaint is that we don't have any "situational abilities" anymore. Everything is part of the fucking rotation. We are *far* more "GCD locked" now than we ever were, I'd argue.
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Re: After 4.0.1--- Do you still like your Pally?

Postby twinkfist » Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:45 am

i've gotten to the point in heroics that i'm not even using avenger's shield...just in case someone pulls an add...which usually happens.
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Re: After 4.0.1--- Do you still like your Pally?

Postby Flex » Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:01 am

More than at any other time of the game. Sometimes you really don't need to use everything in your toolkit to keep aggro on your currently tanked pack and can save it for accidental pickups.

Other than that, there is no change

Well there's also a different priority queue, as in AoE tanking I would replace pretty much anything with a GrCr proc due to the power of AS while that's not always the case in single target situations.
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Re: After 4.0.1--- Do you still like your Pally?

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:12 am

I'll be honest, I liked it a lot more with the 4.5s cooldown Crusader Strike. But yeah I'm still enjoying it.
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Re: After 4.0.1--- Do you still like your Pally?

Postby Passionario » Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:33 am

After 4.0.1--- Do you still like your Pally?

My Holy/Ret Paladin is doing just fine, thank you very much.
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Re: After 4.0.1--- Do you still like your Pally?

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:37 am

I'm enjoying it about as much as before, maybe a little more. I too preferred 4.5 second Crusader Strike for the flexibility, though.
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Re: After 4.0.1--- Do you still like your Pally?

Postby Belloc » Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:43 am

As of the current moment, I'm enjoying my paladin, from a gameplay mechanics perspective, more than I ever have before. For the past few months, I've barely been playing my paladin... but I've been playing it a lot since 4.0.1. I love it.

When I first started getting used to the changes, I had a hard time and I wasn't having fun... but then I got the hang of it and now I'm really enjoying it.
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Re: After 4.0.1--- Do you still like your Pally?

Postby econ21 » Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:48 am

I agree with the OP.

Before the patch, I had become very disillusioned with my tankadin. He was boring - powerful, but boring. Especially in comparison to a newly levelled prot warrior alt who was just a joy to play. I was seriously thinking of changing my main (and we are talking about XXX days played char swaping to X days played).

Reading about them, I thought the pally changes for Cata sounded awful.

Patch day, I was stunned at how most of my action bars had gone and everything seemed different.

Gradually, I started to love the small things - the 3 Holy Power lighting up (especially with Power Auras) and the Avenger Shield procs. They spiced up the gameplay. And feeling as if I had to work for threat made it engaging.

Now, I feel my pally is very familiar. His 939 rotation is VERY like the 969 one, but still more fun imo. His threat and dps are back up, although won't be topping the charts in 5 mans anymore. I like that 102.4 means avoidance and effective health should be balanced again. I am even looking forward to getting 5 more talent points (can't wait to talent WoG and try that out).

I think I must be the target market for Blizzard's reworking of the paladin (I found holy and ret even more boring than prot pre-patch). And imo, they have succeeded.

By contrast, I am far less enamoured of my prot warrior, but that's another story.
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Re: After 4.0.1--- Do you still like your Pally?

Postby Chicken » Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:15 am

I'm enjoying it, the rotation overall doesn't feel that different to what we had but I find the fact that our primary 'pulling' tools now are also part of our standard threat rotation to provide some interesting choices you have to make when tanking multiple targets compared to what we had going on before. It lends a bit of depth to tanking to check how my threat is looking on currently in range mobs and then deciding to perhaps save Avenger's Shield for a bit so I can use it to pick up some more mobs which I know will show up in a short time. Or something simpler like, say, staying at 3 Holy Power for a bit so I can do a good burst of threat the second we swap tanks on a fight like Deathbringer Saurfang.

On the off-spec front I also find that I actually quite like playing Ret now. I never found it a particularly engaging spec to play before the 4.0 patch, but the way they currently are just did a lot of things 'right' in my mind.

It's not going to stop me from rerolling once Cataclysm actually releases, but as I've said before, that's nothing to do with the Paladin class, and more to do with the fact that I really, really, really like Goblins.
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Re: After 4.0.1--- Do you still like your Pally?

Postby Katrienne » Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:02 am

My first night raiding with the new build was horrible. I couldn't keep threat on anything. I kept having to taunt repeatedly. By the end of the night, I was so frustrated I wanted to quit the game. After a night to reflect, I realized that I'd been an idiot and had been concentrating so hard on the new rotations that I forgot to put up RF. :roll: Needless to say, my guild hasn't let me forget it!

Since then, I'm really starting to like the new rotations. AoE requires a bit more thought, but it's doable. Single target is fun again. My only caveat would be that the single target rotation when you absolutely don't want to hit other mobs is weak (unless you swap glyphs which I'll probably end up doing). I do feel a bit more squishy, but I think it's because I'm not using AD and our revised DP effectively yet. My DPS is definitely increased in ICC25.

At any rate, I'm hopeful.
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