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Guild App Screenshot

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Re: Guild App Screenshot

Postby cerwillis » Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:43 am

It's not a debate. An endgame guild working on HLK doesn't care what you like most about WoW. That's about how far I'll let myself be trolled. /popcorn
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Re: Guild App Screenshot

Postby majiben » Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:48 am

Goins2754 wrote:Exactly as I tried to say. Nothing but in game performance can determine whether or not a player is good or not. If a guild app asked me for an UI screenshot, I'd submit it. However, this would signal warning flags all through my body & probably make my spidey-sense explode. My first impression from this kind of question is "we're too good for you. You have to prove to us that you're good enough to play with us."

They're allowed to ask what they want and run the guild how they want. But, what if I'm a good raider who plays my class well who doesn't like to be bothered with two weeks of LUA errors every time a patch comes out? I show up on time, I bring consumables for all. I have subtle advice for other players who may be underperfoming. But, I click? Well, that guild lost out & it's not sweat of my back. As a good player, I know I'm gonna find a guild that meshes with me in both progression & playstyle goals.
Guilds don't need to rigorous ensure that each applicant is not possibly a match to their group. Applications serve to filter out people who are poor fits to their guild. A UI screenshot is a very effective way to filter out people who have not done extensive research/implementation on optimizing their playing. A good ui will greatly increase your comfort zone over a poor one. Just making mouse over macros and tracking rejuv on grid turned healing raids on my resto druid a hair pulling nightmare to a controlled affair.

A UI screen shot will have some false negatives but that is fine for the guild. They don't need every result to be accurate, just most. I say don't reject the applicant right out in the original post. Press upon them to submit one or your can not accept their incomplete application.
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Re: Guild App Screenshot

Postby Malthrax » Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:49 am

Arcand wrote:
Malthrax wrote:If the guild app says "post screenshot of your UI", then you either post a screenshot of your UI, or you don't bother applying to that guild. Simple as that.


Yeah, of course - guilds have the unalienable right to make up whatever
superficial-but-time-efficient app criteria they want. I only object if they
claim those criteria are also good at determining player style or skill.

"I am a good player therefore someone with a UI like mine is probably also
a good player" is reeeeally shaky reasoning.



"Please solve the following partial differential equation in three variables and show all of your work." isn't a very good applicant evaluation criteria either, however if its on the guild application, you suck it up and answer the question, or you go somewhere else.

I don't attempt to divine a deeper meaning to the request than "can understand and carry out written instructions without being hand-held or debating the worthwhile-ness of the task".
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Re: Guild App Screenshot

Postby Chunes » Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:56 am

Goins2754 wrote:Here's my UI. Tell me what you see and your analyzation of it. If you're right, then I'll bow and and concede this debate. (And sorry it's not my main or anything. This was a RP screenshot & the servers are down. It's all I have at this very second.)


I don't recall if the OP was looking for a "while raiding" SS of the UI, because you'll be able to tell a lot more from that. Regardless, your UI looks clean enough to me and I would not see much there to indicate that you were a bad player. Still, in a guild app (as a former recruitment officer for all of endgame BC), I made sure to ask if the applicant was a KB turner/clicker, if they had the golden trio of raiding addons/apps (DBM/Bigwigs, Omen, Vent/TS). Beyond that I usually inquired as to what other "performance enhancing" addons they were running (as Theck mentioned, proc timers, class timers, power auras etc.)

By looking at a potential raider's UI in combat it can give you a really good idea about how proactive that person is to optimizing their playing space. In general, those that have crafted very clean, functional and aesthetically pleasing UI's for combat use will be the people pulling the most DPS/HPS/TPS/whatever because they are very intentional about optimizing their performance.

Sure, someone with a cluttered, piss-poor UI may be able to perform on a very high level, but with a clean, streamlined UI they would perform even better, end of story.

Regarding the lament of having to patch 9 billion addons on patch day, seriously, get the curse downloader. It makes addon updating a non-issue.
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Re: Guild App Screenshot

Postby Dorvan » Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:10 am

Chunes wrote:By looking at a potential raider's UI in combat it can give you a really good idea about how proactive that person is to optimizing their playing space. In general, those that have crafted very clean, functional and aesthetically pleasing UI's for combat use will be the people pulling the most DPS/HPS/TPS/whatever because they are very intentional about optimizing their performance.


I have a cluttered environment, in RL and my UI. Aesthetics are not high on my priority when it comes to my desk or my UI. I also kick ass :P Some UIs are better than others, but it's also a style thing. Some people need to have everything in it's own perfectly fitting place, other have a more lax "it looks like a disaster, but I know exactly where all the information is" technique :P
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Re: Guild App Screenshot

Postby Chunes » Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:54 am

Dorvan wrote:
Chunes wrote:By looking at a potential raider's UI in combat it can give you a really good idea about how proactive that person is to optimizing their playing space. In general, those that have crafted very clean, functional and aesthetically pleasing UI's for combat use will be the people pulling the most DPS/HPS/TPS/whatever because they are very intentional about optimizing their performance.


I have a cluttered environment, in RL and my UI. Aesthetics are not high on my priority when it comes to my desk or my UI. I also kick ass :P Some UIs are better than others, but it's also a style thing. Some people need to have everything in it's own perfectly fitting place, other have a more lax "it looks like a disaster, but I know exactly where all the information is" technique :P


Chunes wrote:Sure, someone with a cluttered, piss-poor UI may be able to perform on a very high level, but with a clean, streamlined UI they would perform even better, end of story.


Even if that's just 1% better performance :P
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Re: Guild App Screenshot

Postby Kelaan » Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:54 am

Arcand wrote:"I am a good player therefore someone with a UI like mine is probably also a good player" is reeeeally shaky reasoning.

Well, true... however you can learn a lot from a screenshot.

We have a "Your awesome UI" thread on our forums, and I've seen lots of other people's UIs (and in the Maintankadin UI forum too). Mine doesn't look like most people's, but it works OK for me. Looking at a screenshot lets you see things like:

- They can see omen.
- They can see boss mods.
- They can see target of target, or can otherwise monitor the status and debuffs on key raid members. Tanks that can't see target of target, or debuffs on ToT, have a hard time taunting proactively.
- They have a clear view of the floor or environment, and thus can clearly and easily see Where Not To Stand.

I find that seeing a fight video from someone's perspective is incredibly informative. I rebuilt my UI after watching one of Ciderhelm's videos, in fact, so that my Target and Target-of-Target are very prominent -- rather than my Self + Target frames. (I actually took oUF_Ciderhelm and modified it to show buffs/debuffs differently, and added some info for the focus targets.) I don't care if someone's UI looks like mine, but I do care to know whether they have easy access to the information that I feel is critical.

Watching some of the PTR videos of Halion kills were astounding, too... as are some of Vodka's kill videos. Their UIs seem so ... minimal. I waffle between saying "pretty! I want it!" and "How do they know when X/Y/Z are happening/ready!?"
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Re: Guild App Screenshot

Postby Chunes » Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:59 am

Another issue regarding layout was highlighted by one of our guild holy paladin back when Sarth10+3d was srsbznss.

He kept wailing and moaning because he couldn't pay attention to void zones AND heal the raid at the same time. After viewing his UI, he had is raid frames jammed in like the lower left corner of his widescreen monitor, so his character would effectively sit in the upper right quadrant of his vision. As it turned out, he just had shitty peripheral or something, because as soon as we suggested that he move his raid frames to a more central location, he stopped dying to void zones.

It's common sense to someone who actively streamlines and enhances their UI for usability during combat, but it may have never occurred to this guy had we not suggested it.
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Re: Guild App Screenshot

Postby Argali » Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:03 am

My guild is medium-scrub level and we ask for screenshots.

We make no judgments and just look for :

Omen
Raid Frames
DBM or equivalent
Too many addons UI tunnel vision

Besides those, we pretty much accept any UI.
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Re: Guild App Screenshot

Postby gtechman » Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:27 am

Goins2754 wrote:Maybe. It all sounds like a long, drawn out form of "GS?" to me.

For me, playing in a guild that is friendly first & hardcore second is the key. What if I'm a mouthbreathing, clicking, keyboard turning, frost mage doing 1500 dps in a raid? Does that mean I shouldn't even be in your guild? I mean, if I'm a nice guy and I'm trying to help then just don't take me to raids. It's not like your guild is going to fill up.

I'd say it's much more fair to have an application with questions like "What's your favorite aspect of WoW? Why did you pick your particular spec? What do you expect from our guild? What can we expect of you?" What's silly is "What's your gearscore? How much DPS do you do? Link achievements."

I say bring them in and see what kind of player they are. Maybe they make the "A" team, maybe they don't. Either way, you might just make a friend and have some more people in the guild to type the obligatory "Gratz" when you down that tough raid boss for the first time.


Most raiding guilds require applications for raiders.

Goins2754 wrote:Here's my UI. Tell me what you see and your analyzation of it. If you're right, then I'll bow and and concede this debate. (And sorry it's not my main or anything. This was a RP screenshot & the servers are down. It's all I have at this very second.)


Your responses in this thread tell me that I wouldn't even have to bother looking at your UI.
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Re: Guild App Screenshot

Postby Dantriges » Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:28 am

Well we asked for screenshots.

Memorable time is the guy who put his vanity pets in his action bar.

Otherwise we were not going so deep in our UI analysis.

I wanted to reconfigure my keybinds but have a hard time retraining my muscle memory and it works. Well I always said that the time I needed to retrain would be a time of shitty peformance, it´s only hindering me in a very very few cases, but well...

Other thing is, providing a log. Most often the guild does the logging, how you handle that? Do you expect your raiders to have their own world of logs account or do you expect them to offer link to the data? I don´t know but I feel a bit uncomfortable offering date of my exguild.
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Re: Guild App Screenshot

Postby Malthrax » Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:41 am

I don't believe World of Logs has an option to "hide" guild data - if I want to find your guild's most recent Festergut-25 attempt, I can find it. Log data on WoL is "public record".

Link away.
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Re: Guild App Screenshot

Postby halabar » Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:41 am

Guilds have a right to ask for anything they so desire to ask for. Even ran across one that required you to have a farming alt (I gather this was to ensure you could support your raiding toon and weren't a gold buyer).

However, it's the truly great recruitment officer that can look beyond the obvious and see potential. A recruitment officer that just follows a checklist and stereotypes does a disservice to his guild and the game.
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Re: Guild App Screenshot

Postby Dantriges » Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:52 am

Well I heard from a guy in a higher ranked guild that they do runs to give people achievement, drakes andloot and stuff like that for dunno 70k or so.

He explained to me that´s a profitable idea for the guy in question, because he can sell the char on ebay for a higher amount ioof bcks, even if he buys gold from gold sellers.

So I asked "Hm so you help goldsellers equipping their characters to sell them for more bucks (why selling gold to people so they can sell their char on Ebay for more bucks if you can do it yourself for a higher profit margin) and undermine methods other guilds use to determine what kind of raider that guy is?" Nice idea... :roll: I am astonished how distorted some people integrity gets in this game.
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Re: Guild App Screenshot

Postby Dorvan » Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:56 am

Dantriges wrote:Well I heard from a guy in a higher ranked guild that they do runs to give people achievement, drakes andloot and stuff like that for dunno 70k or so.

He explained to me that´s a profitable idea for the guy in question, because he can sell the char on ebay for a higher amount ioof bcks, even if he buys gold from gold sellers.

So I asked "Hm so you help goldsellers equipping their characters to sell them for more bucks (why selling gold to people so they can sell their char on Ebay for more bucks if you can do it yourself for a higher profit margin) and undermine methods other guilds use to determine what kind of raider that guy is?" Nice idea... :roll: I am astonished how distorted some people integrity gets in this game.


I highly doubt that goldsellers are purchasing such runs, the gold almost certainly has a higher market value. I'm sure that some of the people who buy such runs buy gold. Personally, I have no problem with guilds choosing to sell access to gear/achievements/mounts they've attained for gold.

Regardless, your post is completely unrelated to the topic at hand, so if you wish to discuss this further starting a new topic would be an excellent idea :)
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