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Cataclysm Paladin Changes

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Re: Cataclysm Paladin Changes

Postby Playdoh » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:33 pm

Kuma wrote:What bothers me the most is that they're starting to announce all of these changes to the classes...but have delayed the Paladin which leads me to believe they aren't done figuring things out yet. So does that mean they're all sitting a table with Ghostcrawling saying, "Okay guys, we've got 5 days left to come up with something...put your thinking caps back on."

It worries me that they're making quick decision and announcing them right away. Shouldn't they have this stuff all sorted out prior to the big "Class Preview"? The Cataclysm Beta is supposed to be starting up this month and they're still trying to re-work our class?

Seriously...


I would imagine that they have everything laid out, but there are maybe 5 items that they are arguing amongst themselves over.

1.) we know that blocking will change, but even amongst the community here there are speculations of different things they could do.

2.) we know that dispel magic will change

3.) we know that mp5 will change - again this is huge, and enough that there would be disagreement amongst themselves on how it should work.

I would almost like a proc ability that I have to choose to enable my extra block. Even warriors ability is just a CD.
The dispel magic isn't a big deal, and least not to me, I don't normally pvp, I do dispel and cleanse where I can, but how many prot pallies do you see doing that in heroics.

The MP5 changes alone are enough for blizzard to want extra time on announcing the changes to the paladin class.

Not giving out changes doesn't mean they haven't started.
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Re: Cataclysm Paladin Changes

Postby Kuma » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:51 pm

Playdoh wrote:The dispel magic isn't a big deal, and least not to me, I don't normally pvp, I do dispel and cleanse where I can, but how many prot pallies do you see doing that in heroics.


*Raises his hand*

Playdoh wrote:Not giving out changes doesn't mean they haven't started.


Sure, we know they've started. We also know they haven't FINISHED.
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Re: Cataclysm Paladin Changes

Postby Amirya » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:52 pm

Kuma wrote:
Playdoh wrote:The dispel magic isn't a big deal, and least not to me, I don't normally pvp, I do dispel and cleanse where I can, but how many prot pallies do you see doing that in heroics.


*Raises his hand*

*Raises her hand*

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Re: Cataclysm Paladin Changes

Postby Flex » Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:36 pm

Kuma wrote:Sure, we know they've started. We also know they haven't FINISHED.


I heard Cataclysm comes out next week....
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Re: Cataclysm Paladin Changes

Postby Joanadark » Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:01 pm

Fully agree with you on this, it is really annoying getting revamped every expansion. Also, I think I remember a blue post saying they want Ret and Prot to use different rotations for Single Target and AoE fights.


Prot maybe, but if a ret paladin just keeps mindlessly following CLC-style rotation managers then they are a BAD PLAYER.

Ret actually has completely different rotations for:
-1 target that lasts a short time (an add to burn, like jeraxxus portal or blazing skeleton)
-1 target that lasts a long time (a boss)
-2 targets
-4 targets
-more than 4 targets that will take 20+ seconds to die
-more than 4 targets that will take <20 seconds to die

Knowing how to actually play your class and not just mindlessly following a rotation manager is part of the basic foundation of being a not-terrible player. It angers me that apparently mindlessly following a rotation manager that treats every situation the same is what most rets do.

There's a reason why you see the same names on DPS scoreboards for a class all the time, no matter what tier it is or what relative gear people have.

No, the ret rotation doesn't change from casting frostbolt over and over against single target, to casting blizzard over and over against multiple targets. But it most CERTAINLY changes dramatically, and the difference is actually more difficult to implement as a good player than simply switching from spamming 1 to spamming 2 instead. It bothers me that the design goal is to condense all rotation decisions for classes into the frostbolt-blizzard relationship.
Last edited by Joanadark on Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cataclysm Paladin Changes

Postby Santcuff » Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:02 pm

Not paladin related... But this just in for DKs
Ghostcrawler wrote: We're doing our Cataclysm preview on the death knight changes later this week, but we knew one change risked overshadowing all the others, so we figured we'd go ahead and drop the proverbial Blood bomb today.

In Cataclysm, death knights will have a dedicated tanking tree, much like the other three tank classes. That tree will be Blood.

We’ll go into more detail in the upcoming preview, but we wanted to take the opportunity to explain the reasoning for such a big change.

Why the about face? We actually thought the “tri tank” experiment worked out okay. We suspected there would always be a “best” tanking tree, because that’s the way these things shake out, but we hoped it would be close enough that many players could tank with their favorite tree. When we tried out this design for Wrath of the Lich King, we were using it as a test case to see if we wanted to do similar things with the warrior and paladin talent trees.

A lot has happened since that time. We introduced the dual-spec feature, allowing players to have a tanking spec and dps spec that they could switch between. We introduced Dungeon Finder, which makes it easier to find players who want to tank, and even let players level up using a dedicated tank spec. In Cataclysm, we are introducing the concept of passive talent tree bonuses and we think that feature is a lot stronger when the talent tree has a particular focus (such as damage, tanking or healing). For example, it’s safer to give more passive damage to a tanking tree than we can a dps tree. Above all, we were just spending a lot of effort trying to balance three trees (though it was really six trees, since each tree was trying to do two things).

It started to feel unfair to the other tank classes that we had to spend so much effort tweaking three types of DK tanks, and it even started to feel unfair to the DK that we couldn’t focus their tanking experience. One bit of feedback that really struck home was the DK players who said, essentially, “I look at the Protection tree and I’m jealous of all of the cool tools they have to help their tanking. As a DK, I have to pick and choose tanking talents from within a sea of dps talents.” Rather than have a strong focus, the trees felt a little watered down because they were trying to do so much. With Frost as a dual-wield, spell and runic power focused tree, Unholy as a disease and minion focused tree, and Blood as a self-healing, defensive cooldown, tanking tree, we think the focus of each tree is a lot clearer and cooler.

In Cataclysm, Blood will be the death knight version of a Protection tree. It will have passive talent tree bonuses that reflect tanking. It will have tools, such as a Demo Shout equivalent, necessary for tanking. Several of the more fun tanking talents from Frost and Unholy will be moved into Blood. We will be able to revise (or even remove) clunky mechanics like Rune Strike and focus on letting DKs generate threat with their normal Blood tanking rotation.

This is major change, and we understand it will be met with some disappointment from players who really liked the flexibility, those who appreciated the unorthodox talent tree design, or those few of you who really liked Blood dps. Nevertheless, we are convinced that this is the right change for the game.

More exciting death knight news coming up soon in the preview.
Last edited by Santcuff on Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cataclysm Paladin Changes

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:05 pm

Sigh.

I will wait to see how this comes out, because it will mean major changes to how the specs play, but I will really miss Frost tanking.
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Re: Cataclysm Paladin Changes

Postby sahiel » Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:07 pm

d503 wrote:
Vorianloken wrote:The low level experience definitely plays a big part here. Waiting to get avenger's shield or crusader strike pretty much sucks, especially since exorcism was changed to a cast spell instead of insta-cast.


There are HUGE quality of life issues with low level Paladins. I have some friends who recently leveled.

Compare this to the change they made for Warriors, where Victory Rush is now like level 6 or something...pretty friggin' huge!


This is exactly what low lvl paladins need, I tried leveling a warrior multiple times in the past few years and absolutely hated it every time, "Yay let's heroic strike for 20 levels!". With victory rush the class seems so much more fun, i'm loving the one i've been leveling on the Maintankaserver lately, that's the sort of fixes we need at low levels for any of the classes with highly limited skills.
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Re: Cataclysm Paladin Changes

Postby Candiru » Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:08 pm

All healers can now dispel magic, so prot paladin + healer can dispel exactly the same deuffs we always have been able to remove before, and more if its a druid or shammie healer.

So its really not a bad change. PvP-wise its a bad change for paladins, but at least holy paladins will have some useful talents for PvP!
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Re: Cataclysm Paladin Changes

Postby d503 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:10 pm

Ghostcrawler wrote:In Cataclysm, death knights will have a dedicated tanking tree, much like the other three tank classes. That tree will be Blood.


I seriously called this like 5 posts ago in this thread...I feel so vindicated!
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Re: Cataclysm Paladin Changes

Postby Santcuff » Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:16 pm

d503 wrote:
Ghostcrawler wrote:In Cataclysm, death knights will have a dedicated tanking tree, much like the other three tank classes. That tree will be Blood.


I seriously called this like 5 posts ago in this thread...I feel so vindicated!

/Cookies!
And yea I laughed when I saw that after I just read the post.
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Re: Cataclysm Paladin Changes

Postby amh » Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:23 pm

Not unexpected, but still.. I'm just glad it'll be Blood.

Edit: Oh fucking hell yes:

GC wrote:It will have tools, such as a Demo Shout equivalent, necessary for tanking
I used to play a paladin.
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Re: Cataclysm Paladin Changes

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:29 pm

I hated the Blood tree back whe I was using it to tank.

A good point came up in the WoW forums thread: this means DKs will have two dps options - pet class, and Dual Wield. If you want to play 2H but don't like using a pet, you're out of luck. (Personally, I will probably keep a Frost dps spec, even if I don't like the tanking tree.)
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Re: Cataclysm Paladin Changes

Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:34 pm

Actually really happy it'll be blood. Now they can get the abomination that is the UH tree into order.
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Re: Cataclysm Paladin Changes

Postby d503 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:35 pm

amh wrote:Not unexpected, but still.. I'm just glad it'll be Blood.

Edit: Oh fucking hell yes:

GC wrote:It will have tools, such as a Demo Shout equivalent, necessary for tanking


It really is the right move...DKs shouldn't be fighting amongst themselves as to what the best trees/buffs are for each fight, and frankly, many DKs have to have two tanking specs for Icecrown because of the different benefits of Frost and Blood.

Good move Blizzard...sucks for my friends who like 2h Blood. I think if they can really nail DW Frost DPS, it will be tremendously fun.
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