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How to make Gold as a tank?

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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby Arnock » Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:51 pm

Calyse wrote:

But now you're comparing 15 minutes of work with 20 3/4 hours of work. What are you going to do for the other 20 1/2 hours? If it doesn't bring your total profit to 20,000 for 20 3/4 hours, then it is still worth it to farm the mats. The problem with the leggings is that it has a greatly limited demand as compared to say epic gems. If you buy saronite and make leggings for 20 hours, it will increase the cost of the saronite and decrease the price of the leggings. I would expect that this would get to the point of near zero profit. You are right to divide up the price/cost ratio of each action. What is price/cost for making a saronite (or better yet an emblem of frost)? Then you need to compare that profitability with other actions.



Still not understanding opportunity cost.

If you farm for 20 hours to get 18,000 worth of mats, you could sell those mats for 18k, but if you choose to turn those mats into leggings which sell for 20k, you pay the opportunity cost of the 18k you could have gotten for the mats.

Let's put it this way, suppose you're in an ICC rep run, and you happen to get a BoE off a trash mob. You can:
a. Sell it for 12k
B. Equip it
C. give it away
Although you paid nothing for the item (aside from perhaps repairs from the run), If you choose to equip it or give it away, you are essentially spending the 12k you could have made selling the necklace on yourself or the recipient of a generous gift.

If you choose to use the mats farming to craft legs, you pay the cost that you could have sold those mats for. So whether you farmed the mats yourself, or bought them on the AH, you still get the same profit for the item, but with a vastly lower g/hour ratio if you farm it.
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby Calyse » Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:53 pm

Arnock wrote:
Still not understanding opportunity cost.

If you farm for 20 hours to get 18,000 worth of mats, you could sell those mats for 18k, but if you choose to turn those mats into leggings which sell for 20k, you pay the opportunity cost of the 18k you could have gotten for the mats.

Let's put it this way, suppose you're in an ICC rep run, and you happen to get a BoE off a trash mob. You can:
a. Sell it for 12k
B. Equip it
C. give it away
Although you paid nothing for the item (aside from perhaps repairs from the run), If you choose to equip it or give it away, you are essentially spending the 12k you could have made selling the necklace on yourself or the recipient of a generous gift.

If you choose to use the mats farming to craft legs, you pay the cost that you could have sold those mats for. So whether you farmed the mats yourself, or bought them on the AH, you still get the same profit for the item, but with a vastly lower g/hour ratio if you farm it.


I think you misunderstand me. I'm saying that the g/hour ratio of buying mats for the leggings and then selling them goes down considerably the more time you invest in it. My belief is that saronite is a pretty steep supply curve. If you buy enough saronite for 1 legging, it may cost 12k. After buying saronite for 4 or 5, it's going to be significantly higher. Thus, your g/hour ratio goes down.

Also, there is a limited number of buyers for the leggings. 20k for one item is a high cost for most people, so the more you sell, the price is going to drop. Thus, your g/hour ratio goes down again.

The g/hour ratio of the first sale (first 15 minutes) is much higher than the 80th sale (20th hour). I'm not sure you could sell 80. At some point, it becomes a zero profit venture or a loss.

Anyway, what needs to be found out is the point at which farming the mats becomes more profitable than just working the AH.

As a sidenote, I do understand opportunity cost. When I won the battered hilt, I won 12k gold. I decided to turn that immediately into a 251 ret weapon, because I felt it had more value to me than 12k gold.
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby daemonym » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:03 pm

halabar wrote:
Koatanga wrote:
Talderas wrote:
And thus each server gets 10,000 more inscriptionists... :-)


S-C-R-I-B-E-S



@OP you can always try selling instant que services as a tank. With good gear and a decent player you can do most any heroic in 15-20 minutes. that's 50g for instant que service, 26 for random bonus and on average 6 emblems. Turn those emblems into epic gems makes each emblem worth about 18g on my server (buy the mix color gems for 10 emblems, the ones for 20 emblems are a waste).
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby phaqueue » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:18 am

Here's the thing about the whole opportunity cost argument...

Farming is viable - for those with no capital to start... they have time - but do not have gold to invest, once you have the gold to invest in materials to further your crafting - it is not worth your time to farm...

I have ~50k gold right now on my account - that means I can afford to buy the mats for everything I craft to sell at profit...

Also - remember this - any gold just sitting on your character isn't making you more gold... so if you have 50k gold and no auction posted, your gold isn't going up - if you have 10k gold and 60k in auctions that will sell (at least mostly) you are moving forward much more than the person just sitting on their gold... there is no interest paid in wow - so gold sitting there can't be lost - but you can't really increase it either...

On farming - farming to craft is not more profitable in either case... because if farming to craft would net you more money than buying to craft... you are losing money by not posting the raw materials...

Also, the argument from earlier in the thread about how "you making that much g/hour is not realistic - because you can't keep it up for the same amount of time" may be true... to a point - I can make as much profit as you can, but when you spend 4 hours on it and I spend 1 hour, that means I have 3 hours to go and run heroics, PVP, raid, level alts, whatever - you are spending all that time farming...

Leveling alts, running heroics, PVP - they can all make me some extra gold, or I can just log off - and still make that gold - while you are still busy farming...

That's really where the opportunity cost comes in... I can buy every stack of herbs under my price to make a profit from them, and ignore the rest... people who do farm a lot on your server will start to learn quickly that someone is buying a lot of their mats, but only when they post them at a certain price... Will you have times when there is nothing there for the right price? sure... but then if you go farm them - they current price is still at a loss for you to craft... so you would be better off putting the raw materials on the AH

The problem people have here is they just keep buying the stuff - especially with things like prospecting - they go "on tilt" oh - this titanium is only 5g per stack over what I need it to be to make a profit, I"ll take those too... oh I didn't really get as many gems as I wanted out of these stacks, I"ll pay a little more for some more stacks and hope I get lucky... then you start losing money

If you are crafting from buying mats only (which is all I do - I haven't had a gatherer since I was leveling in wrath, and dropped it when I hit 80) then you have to be patient, and set limits for yourself. Use the tools that are there - there is a good spreadsheet for milling and darkmoon cards (I made it) and also a pretty good one for prospecting... find the magic number where you can make gold from the materials (spreadsheets are good here because they will do the math for you, just keep the information updated) and DO NOT GO ABOVE YOUR BREAK POINT, by break point I mean, do not go above the amount per raw material that makes crafting worth your time...

If there are no raw materials on the AH that you can make profit from for that profession, have some patience and come back later... you will get them eventually... also - when you see them at the right price, buy them - even if you don't need them right now - having a nice stockpile helps a ton when prices are up for a while (and you can even toss part of your stockpile on the AH and maybe make some quick gold from it)

Also, take the time to learn when prices are cheapest... on my server - I can make a decent profit from prospecting titanium ore at 200g per stack... and at least 3-4 days a week - there is some gold farmer (level 1 alt in SW) selling a lot of stacks for that price... or selling tons of herbs for cheap because they just want the cash quick - watch for those deals, and watch for the normal fluctuation - weekends tend to be a great time to buy materials, because more people are on farming - raid days are a great time to post things like consumables and gems, because people need them for raid/gear from that night.

This also explains why a lot of the people who have gold blogs tend to post results weekly or so... there is a definite weekly fluctuation that you learn as you spend more time at the AH...

It takes a little work - but if you really want to make some gold - it's not that hard... just be smart about what you're spending your gold on...

also - I highly recommend downloading an addon like accountant - it keeps track of your gains/losses and where they came from/went to - it gives you a great picture of where your money is being spent.

(sorry for the long post - hope it helps though :) )
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby Talderas » Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:25 am

phaqueue wrote:Here's the thing about the whole opportunity cost argument...

Farming is viable - for those with no capital to start... they have time - but do not have gold to invest, once you have the gold to invest in materials to further your crafting - it is not worth your time to farm...

I have ~50k gold right now on my account - that means I can afford to buy the mats for everything I craft to sell at profit...


That is about my situation. I have nearly 45k gold on my account (Ignoring an alt on a second account on the same server). The only real costs (in gold) that I have are flasks. My current gear level is high enough, and I'm satisfied with my gemming/enchanting, that I won't need very many enchants or epic gems. I have a nice pile of Triumph badges and Stone Keeper's Shards that I've acquired during my daily heroics for frost badges that the cost in gold of new epic gems is minimal. I give one of my guild members 25g for every epic gem I ask them to craft, I probably wouldn't need to do that. The only "expensive" item I have in mind is the crafted tanking boots. If I were to purchase them right now, I would only have to buy 2 PS, 2 Titansteel, and "pay" my friend to craft them for me. All told, it may cost me 4,500g.

phaqueue wrote:Also - remember this - any gold just sitting on your character isn't making you more gold... so if you have 50k gold and no auction posted, your gold isn't going up - if you have 10k gold and 60k in auctions that will sell (at least mostly) you are moving forward much more than the person just sitting on their gold... there is no interest paid in wow - so gold sitting there can't be lost - but you can't really increase it either...


Generally, if I want to make more money, I look at expensive items that sell at a good rate. This is why I love battered hilts. Since it can't be sold to the vendor it has no posting fee. I'm not losing gold by continually posting the item and holding onto it. I just don't have the gold in a liquid form. I don't care if the AH takes a 5% cut off of the 15k I sell them for, it costs me less than 10k to buy them. It's a very safe investment since people will buy them until Cataclysm, and I will at least get back what I invested to buy it.

phaqueue wrote:Also, the argument from earlier in the thread about how "you making that much g/hour is not realistic - because you can't keep it up for the same amount of time" may be true... to a point - I can make as much profit as you can, but when you spend 4 hours on it and I spend 1 hour, that means I have 3 hours to go and run heroics, PVP, raid, level alts, whatever - you are spending all that time farming...

Leveling alts, running heroics, PVP - they can all make me some extra gold, or I can just log off - and still make that gold - while you are still busy farming...


Exactly, the point isn't whether or not I can maintain those high g/hr rates. The point is that I earn FAR MORE gold for the time I invest in making gold. This means that I can minimize my time spent making gold in order to spend it on other more enjoyable activities. At about 45k gold on account, I'm not interested in any gold making opportunity that I estimate will yield less than 2500g/hr. Most of the gold I make at this point is acquired from the incidental loot I gain from whatever activity I pursue. These are activities that I feel I need to do to support my raiding habit (daily heroics for frost badges) or for various achievements I want to accrue (such as earning Crusader's Seals from dailies) or restoring my Steamwheedle rep through Dire Maul to retain my Revered Reputation with Bloodsail Pirates.

phaqueue wrote:That's really where the opportunity cost comes in... I can buy every stack of herbs under my price to make a profit from them, and ignore the rest... people who do farm a lot on your server will start to learn quickly that someone is buying a lot of their mats, but only when they post them at a certain price... Will you have times when there is nothing there for the right price? sure... but then if you go farm them - they current price is still at a loss for you to craft... so you would be better off putting the raw materials on the AH


Beyond that, there's also a lack of patience in many players. The thought doesn't occur to them that they are going to need X and Y at a later time, so purchase it now while the price is lower than average. You save yourself from having to spend more gold that way, and if you decide you don't need those items? Well you get to offload them at the average market price or even a higher than average market price and make a profit.

phaqueue wrote:The problem people have here is they just keep buying the stuff - especially with things like prospecting - they go "on tilt" oh - this titanium is only 5g per stack over what I need it to be to make a profit, I"ll take those too... oh I didn't really get as many gems as I wanted out of these stacks, I"ll pay a little more for some more stacks and hope I get lucky... then you start losing money


Gambling 101. Don't do it, you lose more than you make.

Personally, I wonder how closely the financial situation of WoW players in game mirrors their real life financial situations.
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby Njall » Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:58 am

daemonym wrote:
@OP you can always try selling instant que services as a tank. With good gear and a decent player you can do most any heroic in 15-20 minutes. that's 50g for instant que service, 26 for random bonus and on average 6 emblems. Turn those emblems into epic gems makes each emblem worth about 18g on my server (buy the mix color gems for 10 emblems, the ones for 20 emblems are a waste).


Yep. I usually get about 20gp per person. Works for my healer too. It helps to have an amusing /trade advert - I get a fair number of 'that's funny' posts and few remarks of derision probably because of it. :D

But yes, there is the whole opportunity cost to deal with. The mats have an inherent value but so does my time. I make more money per amount of time invested by buying mats in the AH and performing some value added function such as JC or Alchemy on them and then reselling them. But that takes seed money - money I got through gathering the mats in the first place then upgrading and selling THEM to get my startup capital.
Last edited by Njall on Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby Discus » Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:58 am

Well another how to make Gold thread has descended into an ego battle even faster than usual - must be something about Gold making threads.

Maybe close thread?
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby guillex » Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:11 am

Discus wrote:Well another how to make Gold thread has descended into an ego battle even faster than usual - must be something about Gold making threads.

Maybe close thread?


Concur.
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby Mcduffie » Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:13 am

[Edit for lulz]

Ima let you finish what you were saying, but this gold making thread is one of the best I've ever seen.
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby Talderas » Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:34 am

guillex wrote:Concur.


Needs more cowbell.
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby guillex » Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:42 am

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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby Njall » Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:47 am

guillex wrote:Image


Damnit, Kyle! Now I have to go listen to some BOC again. Probably the Imaginos CD.
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby Kelaan » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:44 pm

phaqueue wrote:Use the tools that are there - there is a good spreadsheet for milling and darkmoon cards (I made it) and also a pretty good one for prospecting... find the magic number where you can make gold from the materials (spreadsheets are good here because they will do the math for you, just keep the information updated) and DO NOT GO ABOVE YOUR BREAK POINT, by break point I mean, do not go above the amount per raw material that makes crafting worth your time...


Can you link your spreadsheet? :-)

Also, I saw a Visio chart a long time back of someone's profit plan for milling->inks->vellums->$$$; I'd love it if anyone already has this somewhere and would be willing to share it again.

The other challenge is, determining the demand for items. Since glyphs have no deposit (or nearly none?), and vellums are cheap, how do I tell that the couple-hundred vellums I see on the AH on a night are actually selling, versus being re-posted by people whose auctions expired? (I saw that a lot on the glyph market: prices were low, or high, and still few people were buying many of the things.)

I have the same concerns about enchanting scrolls: I can MAKE bunches of scrolls, but ... so are others, and it's hard to determine ahead of time which will sell.

How much time to you spend analyzing a market ahead of time to see how well things will sell, etc, before jumping in?
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby Kelaan » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:47 pm

Discus wrote:Well another how to make Gold thread has descended into an ego battle even faster than usual - must be something about Gold making threads.

Maybe close thread?


I could do without the "omg opportunity cost!" "No U don't understand!" back and forth, but these threads help answer questions that I genuinely have. I suck at making money, and the "sure fire" things I've read about are ones that either require constant AH attention (which I can't do due to playtime restrictions and only one game account) or are very server-economy-dependent (my server's glyph market is already goblinized thoroughly).

I really am thankful for Phaeque's and others' responses to genuine questions. Perhaps, rather than closing this thread, we can make a subforum of General Strategies, or something, about "post your gold making crap here"? Hell, it could be in the Asylum for all I care.
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby Koatanga » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:50 pm

Njall wrote:Yep. I usually get about 20gp per person. Works for my healer too. It helps to have an amusing /trade advert - I get a fair number of 'that's funny' posts and few remarks of derision probably because of it.

I thought about doing that, but figured if it took me 15 minutes of combined advertising and stuffing about getting the group sorted, I could have completed a random and made more from it.
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