How to make Gold as a tank?

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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby Talderas » Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:20 am

Zobel wrote:Now you're just spinning yourself in circles. I'd suggest picking one strawman at a time.


No, I'm not.

Vertical integration is a valid business strategy, but it isn't always the best strategy. It's a strategy that lends itself to scarcity where you have limited competition from your suppliers who charge prices that make it very difficult if not impossible for you to make profit. It lowers the cost to you by performing it in house, but now you add additional overhead, specifically in terms of additional time and labor costs. The problem with World of Warcraft is there isn't really a scarcity. Herbs and titanium veins constantly respawn. There is an infinite supply that is only chained to the amount of time people spend farming those materials.

If I have two companies, one makes a profit of $1,000,000,000 and the other makes a profit of $100,000,000, it is impossible to determine which is more profitable without knowing the amount of effort that went into making that profit. If the one billion dollar company spent less than ten times the effort of the one million dollar company, then the billion dollar company is more profitable. Likewise, if the billion dollar company spend more than ten times the effort, the hundred million dollar company is more profitable.

It's basic opportunity cost, an economic concept that way to many people don't understand.

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halabar wrote:True for those two specific professions, and probably for JC as well, but not necessarily for all. It certainly true for low-markup high-volume selling, but it also depends on how much you are selling.

For my own example with my miner/engineer hunter (and pally JC/BS) I could craft or sell every shred of what I pick up in Icecrown/Sholozar. I was putting about 30-50 stacks of Shattered Rounds up every other day or so, all crafted from what I farmed. However, this weekend, the other sellers disappeared, so I was able to jack my prices and at the same time post about 200 stacks, attempting to take over the market, so I started having to buy some eternal earths. Assuming that the other sellers don't come back, I'll do this as standard, and it fits with your model. But if the other sellers come back, I can just post from the side-product of my titanium farming.


Even if it's a side-product of your titanium farming, you still must factor that time into the time cost of your profitability. It's deceptive because you mentally believe you were just farming for titanium ore and the eternal earths are a side effect of that activity. You sum up the hours spent farming, hours spent crafting, and hours spent posting and divide that into the total amount of gold you earn to yield your profitability.

And jacking up prices doesn't allow you to take over the market. It actually weakens your hold on it. Now that you've jacked the prices up, the market appears more lucrative to more individuals. You've raised the price to a point where others can make worthwhile profit from their effort. You increase competition and consequently decrease your volume of sales unless you camp the AH to try to be the lowest by 1c.

But for lower-volume higher-markup, vertical integration can really help you out. If you are selling one Pillars of Might each week, then your profit is better if you are farming the mats, assuming you have the time to do so.


There is no way it is more profitable to farm the materials yourself. This is entirely because of the eight primordial saronite required to make it. Getting those Frost Emblems requires a large amount of time no matter how you cut it. Average 15 minutes for two emblems from heroics (7.5m/frost), 30 minutes average to get a raid to do the weekly for 5 (6m/frost). Anything less than 6m/frost would be a remarkable yield. That would require 1104 minutes (~18.5) of effort just to get the primordial saronite component for one legging. 138 minutes just to get the pattern. For the sake of argument, let's point out the profitability of farming your primordial saronite. Assuming a market price of 1,800 gold for one primordial saronite, you took part in 20.7 hours of farming for 16,200 gold of materials. That makes your profitability 782g/hr. Let's say you can sell the leggings for 20,000 gold, and I'll say the additional effort to craft and post is negligible, so 20.7 hours of effort yields a profitability of 966g/hr. On the other hand, let's say you buy the primordial saronite for 16,200 then craft the leggings and sell them for 20,000. You made 3,800 profit for about 10 minutes of effort. That makes your profitability 22,800g/hr. I could spend 60 minutes to make more than you would in 20.7 hours. I now have 19.7 hours to spend making money through other means or performing other activities. For the sake of argument, let's say you can only sell the Pillars for 17,500g. Farming them yourself will yield 845g/hr profit, a loss of about 13%. Buying PS, crafting, and selling yields 7,800g/hr a loss of 66%. Even though you took a huge hit to your profit, you're still making gold at far faster rates than if you farmed it yourself.
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby Koatanga » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:34 pm

Whether you do your own gathering or not, the market for your goods is only X quantity per Y time.

So it's a bit fallacious to say your gold/hr increases if you buy the materials off AH, because you can't sell them any faster.

Only if you use the extra time to develop additional product lines can you gain the gold/hr reward for buying materials.

If all you have is a herbalist/scribe toon, for example, then regardless of how quickly you can produce vellum, you can only sell so many per day.

So let's say you sell vellum for 2g each, and you can sell 200 per day. That's 400g gross you can make, per day, regardless of how you acquire the herbs.

Let's say it takes you 1 hour to farm and 15 minutes to craft. 15 minutes for 400g is 1600 g/hr. Looks awesome compared to the 320 g/hr you make if it takes you an hour and 15 minutes to make that same 400g.

However, at the end of the day you only sold 400g worth of stock. ANY cost over and above the cost of parchment reduces the amount of gold you make per day.

1600 g/hr does not mean you can make 12,800 gold in an 8-hour shift. You still only make 400g. You just spent more to do so, so your net profit at the end of the day is lower.
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby Talderas » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:49 pm

Koatanga wrote:Whether you do your own gathering or not, the market for your goods is only X quantity per Y time.

So it's a bit fallacious to say your gold/hr increases if you buy the materials off AH, because you can't sell them any faster.

Only if you use the extra time to develop additional product lines can you gain the gold/hr reward for buying materials.


No, it's not. Even if the product doesn't sell in 48hr, you just spend a paltry amount of time reposting. This maintains a high gold/hr.

Koatanga wrote:If all you have is a herbalist/scribe toon, for example, then regardless of how quickly you can produce vellum, you can only sell so many per day.

So let's say you sell vellum for 2g each, and you can sell 200 per day. That's 400g gross you can make, per day, regardless of how you acquire the herbs.

Let's say it takes you 1 hour to farm and 15 minutes to craft. 15 minutes for 400g is 1600 g/hr. Looks awesome compared to the 320 g/hr you make if it takes you an hour and 15 minutes to make that same 400g.

However, at the end of the day you only sold 400g worth of stock. ANY cost over and above the cost of parchment reduces the amount of gold you make per day.

1600 g/hr does not mean you can make 12,800 gold in an 8-hour shift. You still only make 400g. You just spent more to do so, so your net profit at the end of the day is lower.


You ignored opportunity cost. The opportunity cost doesn't need to be another product line to gain more gold. This is the opportunity cost of having less time to devote to other activities. Whether this activity is raiding, PvP, or some other non-WoW activity. Profitability, in the economic sense, is your total revenue minus your opportunity cost. So to go back to my example of making 3,800g above PS cost off of crafting Pillars of Might. Actually, in both cases the economic profitability of crafting the Pillars is 3,800g. You already spent the effort farming the PS and you could have sold them for 16,200g. No matter which method you choose, you only gain 3,800g from crafting the Pillars. Farming the PS just takes longer.

The only way you can ignore the time you spend farming materials is if you value your time at 0, and if you do that I pity you greatly.
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby Koatanga » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:57 pm

That's a good point - I wasn't considering if you took out the crafting portion and just sold the materials.

However, there are additional benefits to farming that don't go directly in to the primary sale product. In the case of herbalism/inscription, you get Eternal Life and Frost Lotus as a byproduct of farming, whereas if you bought your herbs off the AH you would not have the Life or Lotus to sell.

So really it comes down to whether or not your time is worth the Life and Lotus you get (in that example).

It also depends on what you can do with the time. Since Blizard made the LFG channel a redundancy (if you have to be in town to see LFG, then might as well use Trade), you can't go farming while looking for raid opportunities. But if you are looking for an instance you could get some farming in while you wait (assuming this is not your tank toon, since average tank wait is less than a second).

I frequently farm on my DPS toon while queued for a random heroic, because there's not a whole lot else to do.
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby Talderas » Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:10 pm

Koatanga wrote:However, there are additional benefits to farming that don't go directly in to the primary sale product. In the case of herbalism/inscription, you get Eternal Life and Frost Lotus as a byproduct of farming, whereas if you bought your herbs off the AH you would not have the Life or Lotus to sell.


That really doesn't change it at all. Regardless you end up with $X of herbs, $Y of Lotus, and $Z of Eternal Life. If you refine those into some good R, then you get $R rather than $X + $Y + $Z. You may, and probably will end up with more gold overall but as I said, that ignores the opportunity cost of spending that time farming.

Koatanga wrote:So really it comes down to whether or not your time is worth the Life and Lotus you get (in that example).


Exactly, but for your time to be worth those items, you must severely devalue your time to compete with with time/effort spent buying materials and refining them. So unless your competitors are capable of controlling the supply of raw materials (which is virtually impossible in WoW) farming will almost always yield less profit/time compared to just buying the materials and making the good.

Koatanga wrote:I frequently farm on my DPS toon while queued for a random heroic, because there's not a whole lot else to do.


You could be spending that time in between buying materials and crafting the goods to sell, or you could be spending that time performing some real life activity that you need to do while waiting for your queue. I know when I queue to do my one random on my mage I am typically taking care guild related business or doing some cleaning around my apartment.
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby Koatanga » Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:22 pm

Talderas wrote:You could be spending that time in between buying materials and crafting the goods to sell

I have an issue with that, because if you are trying to acquire gold then you are already spending as much time as is necessary to saturate the market for your goods. You can't make more gold by spending that time doing more crafting, because you won't be able to sell the merchandise any faster unless you can come up with a way to increase demand.

If you say "well, you could craft something else", then I would counter with "If you are actively trying to acquire gold, then you should have saturation in all areas in which you can craft". So the original crafting time we're talking about already encompasses the creation of sufficient goods to saturate your available markets.

So unless you do have other tasks to occupy your time waiting for whatever it is you are waiting for, farming is a viable alternative whether you sell the materials or use them the next time you need to craft things.
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby halabar » Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:25 pm

Talderas wrote:
halabar wrote:True for those two specific professions, and probably for JC as well, but not necessarily for all. It certainly true for low-markup high-volume selling, but it also depends on how much you are selling.


Even if it's a side-product of your titanium farming, you still must factor that time into the time cost of your profitability. It's deceptive because you mentally believe you were just farming for titanium ore and the eternal earths are a side effect of that activity. You sum up the hours spent farming, hours spent crafting, and hours spent posting and divide that into the total amount of gold you earn to yield your profitability.

And jacking up prices doesn't allow you to take over the market. It actually weakens your hold on it. Now that you've jacked the prices up, the market appears more lucrative to more individuals. You've raised the price to a point where others can make worthwhile profit from their effort. You increase competition and consequently decrease your volume of sales unless you camp the AH to try to be the lowest by 1c.

But for lower-volume higher-markup, vertical integration can really help you out. If you are selling one Pillars of Might each week, then your profit is better if you are farming the mats, assuming you have the time to do so.


There is no way it is more profitable to farm the materials yourself.


Jacking up the price isn't indeed allowing my to take over the market, but it does allow me to control it. Yes, I will get undercut, but, by resetting the price higher, I've got a range of price to drop back down to. Yesterday was the first day I've seen with NO other sellers, consistently all day. So I reset the price. My controlling the market will come in with continued undercutting of the competition. I've been doing that to this point, but I'd be a fool to list at the lowest price when there's no competition.

Admittedly, I'm also dealing with a small number of competitors, who decided to stay with goblin engineering, and also who spent a saronite on the pattern. If I was just dealing with raw ore, the story would be a bit different.

What I'm really doing is driving away competition by sheer volume. I haven't seen one of the competitors post more that 10 or so stacks at a time yet. I also got my first "just send me the bullets directly" email, so I'm being noticed by the customers.. :-)


But my whole point here is that you have to understand the market on your server.

Yes, you can possibly optimize your gold/hour by being only an crafter, and not doing any farming, but setting up a business like that takes time, and if the volume isn't high enough, it may not be worth it. Guys like the GreedyGoblin(tm) have a great thing going, but it's also shown that it doesn't work in every market.

It also sound like you just don't like farming. :-) I farm while chatting with guildies in vent, or just relax a bit.

I should have mentioned, that no, I would not farm for the Saronites.. but it applies for the rest of the mats.
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby halabar » Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:33 pm

Koatanga wrote:
Talderas wrote:You could be spending that time in between buying materials and crafting the goods to sell

I have an issue with that, because if you are trying to acquire gold then you are already spending as much time as is necessary to saturate the market for your goods. You can't make more gold by spending that time doing more crafting, because you won't be able to sell the merchandise any faster unless you can come up with a way to increase demand.


His point is (much like the GreedyGoblin's) that farming is for morons. And that you should take advantage of them. Time in-game should only be spent raiding or at guild meetings.

Our point is that on many crafted items, there isn't the volume to support setting up a supply chain and just being the final assembly point for goods (or reseller).

Their rebuttal is then that isn't a business you should be in to make money, so pick up inscription instead.

And thus each server gets 10,000 more inscriptionists... :-)
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby Talderas » Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:56 pm

Koatanga wrote:I have an issue with that, because if you are trying to acquire gold then you are already spending as much time as is necessary to saturate the market for your goods. You can't make more gold by spending that time doing more crafting, because you won't be able to sell the merchandise any faster unless you can come up with a way to increase demand.

If you say "well, you could craft something else", then I would counter with "If you are actively trying to acquire gold, then you should have saturation in all areas in which you can craft". So the original crafting time we're talking about already encompasses the creation of sufficient goods to saturate your available markets.

So unless you do have other tasks to occupy your time waiting for whatever it is you are waiting for, farming is a viable alternative whether you sell the materials or use them the next time you need to craft things.


You can increase demand by dropping prices. Basic supply and demand theory. In this case, your saturation is likely false. Lowering prices will entice more buyers. The question becomes one of whether the current price is where the supply and demand curves meet. Generally speaking, most WoW markets have huge markups and that typically lowering prices will pull in more sales that more than cover the lost profit per unit. For example, flasks are pretty much just used for raids not on farm status. They're just too expensive for the duration to use for anything else. Lowering the price of flasks will make the consumable more enticing to use for non-farm raids, heroics, and possibly even leveling. By increasing the activities which the flasks are valuable to, you increase the amount of buyers. "But the Lotus prices for flask prices that high!" That is partially true. Are their Frost Lotus's sitting on the auction house? If so, the Lotus's are priced too high as well. An auction posting that doesn't sell isn't making you any money. Stubbornly sticking to some higher price makes no sense. There is a pseudo-scarcity introduced by RNG on Blizzard's part, but this is more of a production limitation rather than an actual finite amount of Frost Lotus's. It boils down to the fact that most players (likely lacking in economic knowledge) desire to extract maximum profit regardless of the time spent accomplishing it. Those of us who are capable of making gold at fantastic rates are aware of that and end up spending on a few hours each week earning gold. I personally just pick up on investments on commodities. I spot something that is running below market price. I snatch it up and resell it. I have zero desire to spend the time to start an industry and play the coppers game.

Second, if this applies to low volume trades, you're probably better off spamming trade chat looking to sell your work than buying the materials and posting the lower volume items on the auction house waiting for them to sell. Consequently, since that requires the trade chat, you cannot be farming while you do it. This can be done during your wait time for LFG.

Third, your method seems to describe someone who wants to spend hours upon hours making money. I'm not interested in doing that. I don't think most people are interested in doing that. I'm interested in extracting the maximum amount of profit for the time I spend working towards it. Farming just isn't it. Consequently, someone who is just consumed with making gold, would be far better off buying a second account on which to place all their industry characters. That way you can queue up and craft while playing the game on your main account with just a minor pause here and there. Consequently, your farming between LFG queues is only viable until such point as Blizzard allows emblems to be transferred on your account. At which point, you will see more people farming badges on their tank healers to gear up their DPS alts. I anticipate this will happen since it will decrease the queue time for DPS and make the LFG tool even MORE social friendly.
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby halabar » Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:34 pm

Talderas wrote:Are their Frost Lotus's sitting on the auction house? If so, the Lotus's are priced too high as well.

... I personally just pick up on investments on commodities. I spot something that is running below market price. I snatch it up and resell it. I have zero desire to spend the time to start an industry and play the coppers game.

Second, if this applies to low volume trades, you're probably better off spamming trade chat looking to sell your work than buying the materials and posting the lower volume items on the auction house waiting for them to sell. Consequently, since that requires the trade chat, you cannot be farming while you do it. This can be done during your wait time for LFG.


I'm not sure where the magical farmers that are willing to sell for less and less are coming from, but hey, if you can find them..

Pushing prices lower to enlarge the market is fine in theory, if you have the supply chain to do it, and if there is a real demand for it. I'm not sure your principals here would work in WoW, at least on the general basis. You don't have Madison avenue here to help you advertise. I hear consistently from alchemists that they are working on razor-thin margins. I don't think they can expand the market by lowering prices, unless they start importing those chinese Frost Lotuses. :-)

And not all markets can be expanded. My bullets for example. The folks that need them are already buying them. Lowering the price won't help, nor will spamming trade. If you have a gun, you buy bullets. Only way to expand the market is get more people owning guns.. :D

You are advocating spending time in trade spamming your advertising, but yet don't want to spend time farming?.. I'd rather farm.
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby Kelaan » Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:45 pm

hoho wrote:Though 11 emblems per week sound a bit too few. Surely you can do the easier weekly raid quests and voa pugs too?

It is is about spot-on on my alt. I don't play every night, and some nights I only play on my main. So, I get about 2-4 nights where I can do a random heroic on my alt, and have been getting the weekly raid regularly enough. I used to get into our guild's third ICC group to farm lower spire, but now that we have more mains, my slot is less likely.

And alliance nearly never wins wintergrasp on my sever. I have seen VoA once in the past two months.
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby Roots » Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:01 pm

Talderas wrote:You can increase demand by dropping prices. Basic supply and demand theory. In this case, your saturation is likely false. Lowering prices will entice more buyers.


Careful there. On a competitive market the demand for a certain good can be satisfied in a given day (or in this case a 48 hr period).


One of the problems I've noticed is the lack of regular farmers to buy from in some markets (I don't farm at all)
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby Calyse » Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:09 pm

Talderas wrote:There is no way it is more profitable to farm the materials yourself. This is entirely because of the eight primordial saronite required to make it. Getting those Frost Emblems requires a large amount of time no matter how you cut it. Average 15 minutes for two emblems from heroics (7.5m/frost), 30 minutes average to get a raid to do the weekly for 5 (6m/frost). Anything less than 6m/frost would be a remarkable yield. That would require 1104 minutes (~18.5) of effort just to get the primordial saronite component for one legging. 138 minutes just to get the pattern. For the sake of argument, let's point out the profitability of farming your primordial saronite. Assuming a market price of 1,800 gold for one primordial saronite, you took part in 20.7 hours of farming for 16,200 gold of materials. That makes your profitability 782g/hr. Let's say you can sell the leggings for 20,000 gold, and I'll say the additional effort to craft and post is negligible, so 20.7 hours of effort yields a profitability of 966g/hr. On the other hand, let's say you buy the primordial saronite for 16,200 then craft the leggings and sell them for 20,000. You made 3,800 profit for about 10 minutes of effort. That makes your profitability 22,800g/hr. I could spend 60 minutes to make more than you would in 20.7 hours. I now have 19.7 hours to spend making money through other means or performing other activities. For the sake of argument, let's say you can only sell the Pillars for 17,500g. Farming them yourself will yield 845g/hr profit, a loss of about 13%. Buying PS, crafting, and selling yields 7,800g/hr a loss of 66%. Even though you took a huge hit to your profit, you're still making gold at far faster rates than if you farmed it yourself.


But now you're comparing 15 minutes of work with 20 3/4 hours of work. What are you going to do for the other 20 1/2 hours? If it doesn't bring your total profit to 20,000 for 20 3/4 hours, then it is still worth it to farm the mats. The problem with the leggings is that it has a greatly limited demand as compared to say epic gems. If you buy saronite and make leggings for 20 hours, it will increase the cost of the saronite and decrease the price of the leggings. I would expect that this would get to the point of near zero profit. You are right to divide up the price/cost ratio of each action. What is price/cost for making a saronite (or better yet an emblem of frost)? Then you need to compare that profitability with other actions.
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby Daeren » Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:11 pm

So much on AH playing, but not everyone can play the AH.

I'm a DK, mainly DPS, but when it comes to soloing, my pally tank could do as well, if not better if it was geared.
I cleared all bosses in ZG in 33 minutes, netted me 260 gold + some stuff to disenchant.
I haven't done the timer yet on AQ20, but it's 300-350 gold for all bosses excluding Ayamiss (impossible to DPS). In a bit over 1 hour, you can earn 500-600 gold per 3 days for 1 hour play, it's worth the effort.
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby Koatanga » Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:13 pm

Talderas wrote:You can increase demand by dropping prices.


That argument is not supported by observation. I primarily sell armor vellum, being a scribe. I sell approximately the same amount every week whether the market price is 3g each or 1g20s each.
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